Well, the antipowell, despite your namecalling it's clear that there are enough signatures. The public employees are part of the recall issue, but not the entire picture. Let's stop endlessly repeating the catch-words "union" and "public employee" as this is pandering to the ALEC agenda. Even if the recall costs $20,000,000 I believe it's worth it to fight for our state's independence from the ALEC agenda.

@Bren -

Based on the number of physical pages submitted to the GAB, it's a factual impossibility for there to have been more than 1M signatures submitted against Governor Walker. In all reality the true number is somewhere between 760k-830k. I already did the math for you in other posts proving this point, so please don't ask for links. Invalidating half of those signatures as being invalid would indeed fail to trigger the recall, correct? So please, stop perpetuating the 1M+ signatures LIE, as it's very unbecoming of you.

If it's not just about the public employee union issue, then why was the top Democratic challenger so quick to sign a pledge of loyalty to those unions that would effectively shut down the state government if the unions don't get their way right away? A curious move at best, wouldn't you say?

You constantly go on and on about the ALEC agenda, while remaining completely silent as to the union agenda.

Again, your partisanship is showing!

The comments look strangely disembodied when someone deletes a comment, like one was suddenly caught talking to oneself...

Mr. Hoffa, I can't speak to why Ms. Falk did as she did. I would like to see other candidates too, as I've written, Jon Erpenbach, etc. I'll vote for whoever the challenger is regardless because as I've also written, I'd vote for a stalk of corn before I'd vote for Scott Walker, because at least Stalk of Corn isn't an ALEC candidate. ; )

@Bren -

I noticed that too. Don't worry, the regular Patchers know you're not quite as crazy as Hoffa is just yet to actually start talking to yourself on public boards :-)

@Bren -- I would like to hear more from Douglas LaFollette about his positions on various issues. There are more choices than just Kathleen Falk.

Very nice Mr. McB!

here, here . . .ultimately, 'let the citizens decide.'

We already decided in 2010!

So, can we move forward now?

@James Hoffa..
Yes, they did decide in 2010 and they are deciding---AGAIN!!!

@Patricia Murray -

You're right - WE will decide to elect WALKER, AGAIN!!!

But do we really need to spend $22M+ to solidify what we in the state already know to be true?

BTW - Who is the 'they' that you keep referring to?

The gains in WI are in spite of President Obama. Gov. Walker made courageous decisions. Closed the crazy deficit and retained virtually all public union employees. When are you going to give him credit? Public employees pay a little more for pensions (still low) and can not get home run compensation from people they pay to get elected. It was nice cleanup. Just act FDR.

@Guy Eaton -- 'Panties in a bunch'? 'Liberal judge'? '100% union thing'? And you're the guy who expects me to believe you have no dog in the 'race'? (I think you meant 'fight'.)

You do realize that to be in a union you have to have a job, right? You get a paycheck, pay taxes, buy food, put gas your car, go on vacation, buy a t.v. -- all those things that make for a strong economy.

Could it be Republicans signed false names to the petitions, knowing/planning this would happen? YOU BET!

100% a union thing? With union membership at only 11.8% of all workers, I'd say that they have an unusual hold over the actions of all those non-union, pro-recall citizens who want to see Walker go. But then, they probably aren't as smart as you.

There's no other justification for the Walker recall than the public sector union issue, is there? All of the other so-called reasons were mirrored by Doyle - not to mention that Doyle raised taxes against his express campaign promises not to. But you didn't try to recall him, did you?

Your history proves that this is 100% about the public sector union issue. Quit trying to fool yourself and others and just man up to the reality of it!

C'mon, Jerry!

I agree with you 100%. We all need to wait and see what happens with the "John Doe", both Republicans and Democrats in Wisconsin. This may change everyone's attitudes!!

True. I was always honored to work for small businesses that collected their profits without the burden of paying for my health insurance. The freedom to choose between death and bankruptcy was so exhilarating!

@James- Never you mind Randolph James he is a bit of a anarchist lemming that will only someday overcome. I am not sure what it is that these liberal pansises always sing about overcoming but I think it has to do with coming out of the closet.

@Randy1949 -

Apparently, you didn't have to make that choice as you worked for small business but are still ticking, correct?

Must not have been the doom and gloom scenario espoused by your comment after all, eh?

@JRH -- Actually, I once put off an 'elective' surgical procedure that had the potential to become an 'emergency' surgical procedure for several years until one of us could get a job with health coverage. My doctor wasn't very happy with me. I could have either not been ticking or we could have been bankrupt if things had gone differently.

@Guy Eaton -- Again, who is this Randolph James? Never heard of the dude.

And did you just call me a liberal pansises? It sounds vaguely dirty. Bear in mind, with your talk of closets and coming out of them, that men who question others' sexuality usually have secret doubts about their own.

Sorry - but you are way wrong on that. When given a list of things that businesses complain hurt them, taxes and regulation are lower on the list. They need to make a profit before they are taxed, and most businesses are not affected by the EPA the way the polluters are.
The main thing businesses need to flourish? Aggregate demand, which means customers with money. The noose you are talking about is a figment of the right's imagination, and you are being sucked into the myth.

@Randy1949
So you feel a need to blame the people that gave you a job who were forced to match your FICA out of their profits? Blame yourself for being the masochist because no one cuffed you to your job except you.

Most of the WalkerTard Army signs their name with an "X".

@Guy Eaton -- I've always thought dog-racing was a rather sleazy 'sport'.

Other than that -- no, you don't have much of an ideological agenda here at all.

@Randolph- Actually the ideology kick is the only agenda I do have here. Whether you find dog racing sleazy or not, c-mon, who really gives a rats fuzzy behind what you find sleazy? But OMG if your little petition thingy fails oooooh I am going to get a big ole grin on my face. If your tantrum succeeds well I am from Ohio and will think of the 2 million it cost you suckers to be such unpatriotic scum and still grin.

Who the dickens is 'Randolph'?

From Ohio, you say? May I kindly invite you to go back to your own state and stay out of the affairs of ours?

I was raised in Wisc. and remember the Kohler strike for a union. No union means you can be fired without cause. I watch from another state because my family lives there. Remember your history, its a great state and don't let a Gov. that only spent his time in school rather than work mess up the state. You have to be a good state, you have the Green Bay Packers. Back to reality. My heart still lays in Wisc.

@Randolph- No you may not.

Karen: I don't know of anyone who has a problem with Kohler. If Kohler employees were paid with tax dollars, then it would be different.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Remember Briggs ? Who screamed when the Company took employer paid health care away from union employees in the early 1980's? Do you know they were paying $1200/ month out of pocket, and saw no raises for more than a decade? I didn't see one picket sign, tent city, tantrum throwing fit from any public employee.

@Karen A. -

Your assertions here are not true. Even under Act 10, state and local level governments must still provide cause in order to terminate an employee. Act 10 makes it easier to get rid of under-performing employees, thus increasing the efficiency and effectiveness of the services being provided with our tax dollars.

You may want to lay off the Daily Kos and only come back when you have your facts straight.

Try again.

@Guy Eaton...To update you, the Wisconsin Employee Trust Fund is fully funded and no funds come out of the general fund to pay benefits. In fact, we are one of the few states that have a fully funded retirement fund. It has been well managed and is viable far into the future.

I am not only a liberal but a social democrat. My formal training is in the social sciences, including psychology, sociology, political science, anthropology and macro economics. I also am formally trained in philosophy. I have held positions in mental health as a psychotherapist and ended the last three decades as a business executive and entrepreneur. Now retired I am pursuing my avocation of writing focused on moral and ethical philosophy. Now if you want to discuss issues I am more than open to such.

I find your accusations of others on this thread and the Patch as rudimentary stereotyping. Wisconsin has enough money to pay its bills and provide for the social welfare of it citizens. You have continually made misstatements and are obfuscating the elements of truth.

What is really crazy about your rant is that you in all liklihood actually believe it. I suppose ACORN was just a bunch of GOP shenanigans as well. I suppose that it was GOP that put the cocaine up the democrats nose. Lemmings is the perfect analogy since it is quite clear that what the unions and liberal media says, you all follow, with blinders on, and won't even entertain the possibility that you are being spoon-fed the ejaculations of those who would rip our constitution to shreds for personal gain.

@Kiviana -

This is the Patch, where we like hard fact.

If you prefer conjecture, supposition, speculation, inference, and good old down home conservative bashing and name calling, then might I suggest the Daily Kos for your fix!

Wanda Knapp I am a public sector worker and I am not in bondage to anybody, especially my union or political party. Oh yea I forgot and I am now a dreaded independent. Recall Walker!

Here! Here! NIce to see an academic does reside at the top of the world.

@Wanda Knapp...Only if you are on the far right does the center look like far left. Time to acknowledge your far right perspective.

Good Point Lyle! So true. Vice versa as well.

@Dark Star -- Thank you. Scott Walker is a complete turnaround for this state. There have been GOP governors in the past whom I respected, even if I didn't completely agree with everything they did, so when Walker won, I though, "How bad can it be?"

Very bad. Very bad indeed. I know what he's been doing and whom he has been doing it with. I really think he meant to use the state as a stepping-stone to national office on the TEA-ALEC agenda. May that never come to pass.

@Dark Star -

How are Lt. Doolittle, Boiler, Talby, Sgt. Pinback, Bomb #20, and the beachball Alien doing?

Dark Star, it's even worse than that. Not only is he corrupt, but HE ACTUALLY TRIED TO SELL A SENATE SEAT VACATED WHEN IT'S FLEDGLING HOLDER MOVED ONTO A POSITION A GREATER IMPORTANCE!!!!

Oh...wait...

Sorry, I thought I was about 250 miles south of here for a moment. All this talk of the most dishonest and outright corrupt state administration in the country...well, you know...easy mistake.

Thankfully, we've got these out-of-staters who have the perspective being nowhere near here and who aren't subject to same sort of misleading spin they accuse others of falling for to set us straight and help us see the big picture.

BTW, have you met our Bren? He's another self-described independent who's independently decided he's going to see everything from the standpoint of being a lefty.

And, er.,,"Randolph"...MYOB to all out-of-staters, or just those you don't agree with?

@Randy1949 -

Come on - one minute you're asking the guy from Ohio to keep his nose out of our business and the next you're providing open arms to someone from Virginia!

At least be consistent on this my man!

@McBride & JRH -- Nope, I just tell off the out-of-staters who insist they don't have a horse in the fight, or whatever tortured metaphor he used.

Hi James Hoffa, good to know you've risen, or returned from down below, depending on perspective. I have no idea what you mean by Doolittle, Boiler, Talby or the other characters you mention. What does that mean? Just curious.

Hi Bob McBride. Yep, plenty of corruption to be found in both parties. You need to stamp it out when it surfaces, regardless of your partisan positions. Otherwise, you become an enabler at best.

As far as out of state spin, almost every conservative email list I am on is using outright lies and scare tactics to solicit Walker defense donations from conservatives nationwide. That makes it my business and I have been paying close attention from the beginning.

@Dark Star -

'Dark Star' (1974), a cult classic from writer/director John Carpenter.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069945/

Walker is a product of his fathers cult . A very right wing branch like the branch davidians. It produced all squirels and snakes. It does not allow childhood. You go from the utterist to job. You learn to work or no bottle. It has made walker the antichrist. Just like in the new testement. His followers will be destroyed along with him by God. Thank God. He is destroying education and our youth. He has 1 in 3 children now with arrest records in Wisconsin. As assemblyman he wrote truth in sentencing. This cost Wiscosin 39 billion sinse enacted. The true cause of Wisconsin`s budget issues. This has ended liberty justice and the persuit of happyness in Wisconsin. It has busness fleeing like refugees. Our unstable governemt has everyone in the stae living in fear. Whats next camps for the poor and showers. You can no longer trust walker / koch industries. they are not human.

Tell it like it is Wendell... You have got this figured out perfectly. Randolph is not being a bad citizen, he actually believes all the crap his union has spoon-fed him. One does not have to be so sharp to figure this whole thing out. The unions cannot withstand the slow chipping away of its power in the workforce. It is a slow and difficult ending. This is their Waterloo and they know it. They are hurriedly trying to convince their lemmings to stand up and fight, much like Custer at the Litlle Big Horn. Their struggle will fail. If not now then soon enough. The money to keep the unions afloat is just not going to be there. It will be too hard for workers to pay for Obama's social engineering strategy i.e. Obamacar, Green Energy, the next stimulus package etc. In the interim, perhaps we on the other end of the spectrum should read up on Mein Kampf. It is better to know your adversaries better than they know you... Just sayin...

Ummm. You realize of course that your statement is compete BS, right? One of the first things Hitler did when he took power was to crush, then disband, the unions as being enemies of the Reich.

@Guy --'Randolph' has never belonged to a union, ever. 'Randolph' has just been aware of the slow chipping away of the power of the individual middle-class worker, period, over the past three decades.

For me, the recall isn't about the unions. It's about the entire Walker package.

Sounds like Misters Nelson and Tatman worked their butt off all year and were willing to come in whenever they were called. They may be just damn good employees who are fully dedicated. That being said, they may also have taken full advantage of every opportunity to increase their wage, possibly by going above and beyond the call of duty. Possibly too, by taking advantage of what they were allowed. They probably worked every holiday and every other undesirable shift. How hard did they work and what are their qualifications.

The real test are not two outliers, but what is the average wage of all the bus drivers?

ok, so some bus drivers made a lot of money! i thought that walker liked performance based pay! looks like those guys performed well beyond expectations!

@jt 'john' -

Read closer - the only way they accrued so much overtime and ultimate take home pay was by utilizing union rules that prevented their fellow brothers in solidarity from being privy to the chance of overtime. It has nothing to do with going above and beyond the call of duty except to serve their own financial self interests, but then again, that's what public sector unionization is all about!

interesting that there is that much overtime to be had....sounds like someone doesn't know how to do a budget correctly.....i mean.... if u offer sick leave..then wouldn't u hire enough employees to cover those type of days ? as for making 100 grand in overtime pay....& 59 grand in base pay.......this sounds more like management doesn't know what they r doing....please...don't base these wages on uions....base ur fight on unions on the base salary of the drivers...not the overtime wage because of poor management

@John Smith... just for the record, do you cook your own Meth or do just use the standard "street grade" .

Wages and working conditions are improving greatly in China- are unions getting credit for that?
I do not deny unions brought about change here in the US, but employee pressure also does the same thing.
Public employees have no need to be in a union- they have protections aready set in place before the labor union.
We need to separate the Public Unions from Unions in the private sector when discussing politics, although this seperation seems to be intertwined with a common agenda.
Union membership has declined steadily, and the push to increase membership has been strong. Union business is big business, and their CEO's are profit hungry like any other CEO. Their financial support of politicians, though not alone, is part of the problem with American Politics.
Why the national unions are pouring money into a State's business is self explainatory...They see a threat to the almighty dollar in their big business coffers.

@Dark Star -

You do realize that this is the Patch, don't you?

Ask Lt. Doolittle to steer your ship over to the Daily Kos - that's where you really want to be!

@JRH -- And The Patch is known to be Conservative territory? Actually, I think the new faces have been directed here from HuffPo, where the recall is getting some coverage.

@Randy1949 -

You know I do that just to get a rise out of new people - especially out-of-staters :-)

Craig, agree that unions need certain limits to protect against certain excesses from the past, but in Wisconsin, Walker has been extreme to point of infringing on the right to free association and other fundamental liberties. It's not just about unions.

Yes union membership has declined steadily and that exactly reflects the decline in overall wages, the health of the middle class, the increasing wage-income disparity, US economic strength and many other important factors. Without collective bargaining for unions, all the workers who anchor the middle class will fail to keep up economically and the country will become more divided between rich and poor. Very unhealthy.

There is more big money pouring into your state from big money oligarchs like the Kochs than the unions will ever be able to raise.

Practically every conservative Listserv, email list and website I look at has Walker and his allies trying to scare conservatives into donating their money to him by telling them lies.

I suggest not worrying too much about the comparatively small amount of money unions are putting into the recall effort since they are declining in influence as you say. I would look at the hidden tens of millions coming from the Koch Brothers and their plutocratic cronies and ask yourself, "What is in it for them?"

Hi James Hoffa. Still don't understand your Dolittle reference. I have no idea whether The Patch is right, left or center. One might think they are somewhere in the middle, judging from comments on both sides.

James, I am just an educated independent who lives in Virginia's First Congressional District. I support good people and oppose bad people, regardless of their party affiliation.

The only reason you see that I have posted on another Patch story on this issue, is because there is a link to it from this story. I've never been paid to post anything by anybody anywhere. You may not like the well-researched opinions I may post, but trying to discredit them by spurrious suggestions that I'm paid to do so is laughable. I must not be too educated though, because I had no idea there is a rally today in Madison. If I weren't 1000 miles away, I might attend it though.

Randy 1949 is correct about something he posted regarding why your news story is getting new people such as myself. I was redirected here by the story teaser I clicked on from the Huffington Post with whom I have no political affiliation, one way or the other. It is only because I have been with AOL for 14 years (for better or worse) and the Huff Post has been one of their browser default news sources for a year or two. Other browsers I use have CNN, Fox and MSNBC as their home pages. I get my news from multiple sources, right, left and center when I can find it.

@Dark Star -

See above, the references are from a movie from 1974 titled 'Dark Star,' written and directed by John Carpenter. The film is considered a cult classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSccwmmrS5A

@Dark Star -

You may want to familiarize yourself with all of the good that Walker has done for our state then by visiting:

http://itsworkingwisconsin.com/

Hi James Hoffa. Thanks for that link to the "movie from 1974 titled 'Dark Star,' written and directed by John Carpenter. The film is considered a cult classic."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSccwmmrS5A

I actually did not know about the movie and that is not where my screen name is from. However, I went to the link, watched the movie trailer and found it very funny. Thank You for that. By the way, Darkstar is not from the Grateful Dead song of that name either. I just thought it up one day and came upon references later.

James Hoffa, I went to your link to "familiarize myself with all of the good that Walker has done for our state." http://itsworkingwisconsin.com/ Even you should admit that it is pure Puff and Propaganda at that link. That is just a Koch brother funded website and is exactly what I've been talking about! I watched the video, clicked on the "News", read the blog etc.

IT IS ALL FUNDED AND POSTED BY THE KOCH BROTHER'S "AMERICANS FOR PROSPERITY FOUNDATION" That is about the most unobjective source you could possibly give to support Walker, a Koch Brothers Propaganda site. Can you provide any objective, non-partisan sources to support Walker? I've been looking and I can't seem to find any.

James, if it was working in Wisconsin as that link tries to say, you would not have the people in the streets demanding recalls. Under Walker it has obviously not been working. Again, Res Ipse Loquitur - The Facts Speak for Themselves.

@Dark Star -

OK, try this link then:

http://reforms.wi.gov/

And by means of comparison, I guess that the people in the streets known as the 'Occupy Movement' are indicative of the fact that Obama isn't working, right?

The only reason there are people in the streets in Wisconsin is because they are upset that they lost the power and corruption that they once enjoyed under our old way of doing things. But Walker has shown the state the light and we've decided on a new and better way of doing things. Once the people in the streets stop their temper tantrum and start behaving like adults again, maybe they will see the reality of the situation.

Or, would you have preferred us to lay off tens of thousands of state workers and trumped up our debt so that future generations are made to pay before they're even born as other states have done and continue to do?

I'll take Walker over the opposition any day of the week my friend and I'll stand with him until the end!

Come on James, that is just Scott Walker's own website! Hardly an objective measure to assess his own performance. You can't give me Walker's website to get an objective critique of Walker's own performance. The two links you have given me to justify Walker and his Koch cronies are simply their own websites! That is the definition of non-objective. That's what I mean. I have found no non-partisan or objective websites I have found that can make a decent case for Walker's administration, his actions or those of his close colleagues.

As an independent outsider looking in, I have to tell you that across the country the predominant opinion regarding which state is most poorly or corruptly run points to the Walker administration in Wisconsin. Your state has become the national posterchild for Corruption, bad government, partisan bullying and just plain partisan over-reach.

Of course you have every right to stay with Walker's corrupt administration until the end. Who knows, maybe you guys will save him from the fate he deserves, but it surer won't be by stating the facts regarding integrity or good government. If you are successful, well, that's just another blow to governmental integrity in the US, and then we all lose.

@Dark Star -

Actually, that's the official state government website. I could link you to Walker's personal site, but I can already tell that you wouldn't be interested.

If anything, your search for supporting information about Walker and his policies should alert you to the MSM's clearly liberal bias and disposition.

I'm surprised that you don't seem to have a problem with Walker's top Democratic challenger signing a pledge to veto any budget that doesn't fully restore public sector union collective bargaining privileges. If Falk held true to that pledge, it could act to effectively shut down the state government in a stand off, all to please a very small special interest segment of the state's total population.

Like our Bren, you'll throw the terms Koch and ALEC around until you're blue in the face, but will fail to acknowledge the clear corruption coming from the other side.

I can only hope that you'll learn to see the world through better eyes than the ones you're currently using.

Cheers!

James R Hoffa, Wow! That's the official government website? It sure looked like a Walker website dedicated to congratulating himself for many actions which others find reprehensible. Government websites are usually biased by whoever holds the reins of power at the time in the government. However, I've never seen a state's website that is so shamelessly dedicated to promoting those who hold the reins of power. It really is Orwellian!

I'm well aware of the various media biases from different segments of the media. I started studying journalism even before I attended the Journalism Camp in Flagstaff at U of N Arizona in 1972 when I was 16. Yes, I read Bernie Goldberg's book "Bias" the very year it came out. I always read between the lines and note who the publisher is and what their biases may be when reading, listening or watching any media. All I'm saying is that Walker's antics are the posterchild nationwide for government over-reach and alleged corruption.

The only reason I allude to ALEC and the Koch Brothers are because they are part of a nationwide movement which I feel is becoming ever more ideological, societally harmful and anti-democratic in nature. A good bit of Walker's legislative over-reach was not legislation written in the state of Wisconsin, it was written by the highly partisan American Legislative Exchange Council, or ALEC. I think it is harmful to Wisconsinites and to America in general, but good for the Koch Bros and their cronies' fortunes.

James Hoffa. And by the way, I never turn my head at corruption from anyone. I'm actually known locally for exposing corruption, regardless of the source. I could lambast plenty of Democrats for proven or alleged corruption. (Rostenkowski D, Jefferson-D-LA, Charlie Rangel D-NY, Traficant D-OH, John Edwards D-NC etc.) I could lambast plenty of Republicans for the same, if not worse. (Tom Delay R-TX, Jack Abramoff R, Newt Gingrich D-GA, Richard Nixon R-CA, Bob Ney R-OH etc.)

However, it isn't the Democrats that are at fault in this case, it is a Republican and his name is Scott Walker. Perhaps you like your Scott Walker sponsored union busting legislation to be written out of state by a once secret, totally partisan outfit like the Koch Brothers funded ALEC.

The voters in most states want their legislation to be written by their elected officials and tailor made for their own state. Not imported from outside the state to benefit financial or political interests from outside the state.

I acknowledge clear corruption from both sides and I know it when I see it. Judging from events in Wisconsin, I am not alone.

@Dark Star -

You see Walker as being Orwellian? Really???

Dystopia is associated with the extreme left - 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' (1984), Terry Gilliam's 'Brazil' (1985) and Lucas' 'THX 1138' (1971). If anything, chaos theory would be associated with the extreme right.

The Koch's and ALEC advocate for a constitutionally limited government along the lines of libertarian political ideologies. I don't believe them to be the boogey-men that you apparently see them as. Don't forget, there are just as many boogey-men on the left - Soros, Buffet, Doerr, Robertson, Berggruen, etc.

Not to mention that Wall Street firms and players gave more money to Obama than any other Presidential candidate in the history of our country. Which side is it again that's corrupt with money?

Walker is doing everything he was elected to do and Wisconsin as a whole appreciates his efforts, as the results from this bogus recall will show to the rest of the country!

WALKER FORWARD TO VICTORY!!!

Hi James R Hoffa. Yep, I really do see Scott walker's administration as pretty darned Orwellian. I appreciate that you feel "Walker is doing everything he was elected to do", but I disagree that most people see it that way. Not in the Nation or in Wisconsin do most people feel Walker is doing what he was elected to do.

More importantly though, it is the things Walker is doing that he did not say he would do. He did not mention in his campaign the controversial things he did. Walker's true agenda once in power was a very unpleasant surprise to most Wisconsinites and they are doing a good job expressing what they feel about it.

I agree with you that there are wealthy boogeyman financiers on both sides and I generally dislike all of them because they often manipulate the political process and the people's will for their ends.

There is though, one big distinction between the Koch Brothers and George Soros, besides the fact that both Koch brothers each have more money than George Soros.

It is a fact that the Koch Brothers Empire's political agenda and actions benefit them and their financial interests above all others. Soros' donations to Progressive and other usually left leaning causes is actually contrary to his financial benefit.

Consequently, it is reasonable to assume that the Wisconsin Koch Cash Avalanche is intended to keep their man in office for their own financial benefit. They have always operated this way and in my opinion, they are now too.

@Dark Star -

I really have to introduce you to my close personal friend Jim Jones, as apparently you are a big fan of Kool-Aide!

I would say that the biggest difference between the Koch Bros and Soros is that the Kochs make their money by creating jobs that put people to work and produce actual physical products, many of which have become necessaries in today's society, while Soros makes his money from the buying and selling of others. If you can prove how the Koch's personally and are the sole financial beneficiaries of their political activities, then you deserve a cookie. Not to mention that Mr. Soros is no where near as altruistic as you give him credit for.

It's funny how perspective works and how a personal bias influences such, isn't it?

Try again!

Hi James, see post in thread above. I'm new to your "Patch" and may have navigation errors.

Mr. Hoffa, someone has been posting notifications about an upcoming rally at Brookfield Mall on the 24th... ; )

@Bren -

Gee, I wonder who that could be :-)

BTW - For the record, I don't receive a single penny for any of my efforts. The rally being organized is completely grassroots by a small team of dedicated Walker supporters. I'm merely trying to do my part.

Cheers!

well james, i think you are a paid right ring blogger and to prove this, your nonstop posting on all political issues shows that. no one who wasn't being paid wouls spend that much time on patch just for fun! there just isn't a paper trail to prove that you are a paid blogger yet. but that's why you use a false name and picture isn't it?

@jt 'john' -

Aside from not knowing what a "a paid right ring blogger" is, again I can assure that no one pays me for my Patch activities. In fact, the only reason I spend so much time on Patch is because I'm desperately seeking your friendship.

I already explained why I use a nom de plume numerous times and don't feel like repeating such again. Why do you hide behind two letters and a picture of a motorcycle - I thought you were a proud Teamster?

gee james, it's my motorcycle.

@JRH --I really wish our esteemed friend from Ohio would learn that there are more things that 'Randy' can be short for than Randolph. He isn't even close.

And you haven't cornered the market on eccentricity. LOL

I'll have to try harder then :-)

How about "Ayn Randy"? We could go with that one if you don't like "Randolph"

No thank you. Ayn Rand was an idiot. I learned that from reading Anthem.

I'd prefer Randall Flagg, if we must.

good luck james, how many out of state teabaggers will be at that rally? 50?

@jt 'john' -

We'll probably get more than the number that turned out for the local 'Reclaim Wisconsin' tour that was held last week in Monument Square!

Additionally, we don't really expect an overwhelming turnout, but rather more of a congregation of the area's most dedicated Walker activists.

I know you want to attend!

Doug, that is priceless! I hope you don't mind if I quote you.
"Obama is not a socialist, he is a closet republican. Walker is not a republican, he is a dictator, the Koch brothers are not communist, they are like the Walton's (Walmart) out for their own twisted pleasure in manipulating government for their own personal interest and goals." I may have to repeat this elsewhere.

Wendell, you are certainly right on both comments above. That's why we have checks and balances, to keep both sides from over-reaching.

Recalls are usually fairly extreme measures that are only taken in cases of extreme over-reach, just like the case of Scott Walker.

Well, what if the bus driver is working 60-70 hours a week like we're all told we should to get ahead? Or is that only for people with white collars and MBAs?

I say fine -- hire extra bus drivers so we don't spend that much in overtime pay, except that will end up costing even more.

Hi Wendell, I'm interested in seeing your "criminal comment" that I missed. Please post it again whether I agree with it or not. Some people just don't like free speech if they don't agree with it.

Hi Wendell, not a bad comment. I think maybe they didn't censor it because I can see it twice now. I agree things are pretty screwed up. Sometimes it is not easy to decide which is the lesser of two evils. Improperly run unions have certainly been taken over by organized crime before. I think it is even worse when governments are taken over by partisans determined to serve their own financial benefactors at thye expense of the citizens who elected them.

Wendell, I agree that Scott Walker has not been convicted of any criminal wrongdoing, yet. Hence he is still innocent of that, as you say, and maybe he will remain so. However, over-reached is not a legal term or legal offense for which you can be convicted in a court of law.

It is when you are convicted and rebuked in the court of public opinion that most consider a politician to have over-reached. It is a somewhat vague term. For Scott Walker to be subjected to what is going on right now is what I would call a conviction in the court of public opinion which seems to have decided that he over-reached.

The question is what will the sentence be? Will he be forgiven for violating the public trust and confidence and allowed to stay in office? Or will he be given the political death penalty and be removed from office?

Like often happens in the courts, he may be able to spend his way out of trouble since he has his Koch Brother Sugar Daddy's billions behind him. Hopefully, from my perspective, Wisconsinites will see through all the propaganda that Koch money can buy and make his corrupt administration a bad memory.

Amen!

@Wendell -

You wouldn't happen to actual be Alan Eisenberg, in his triumphant return to Patch - would you be?

BTW - Who is CowDung?

You might well ask who is John Galt?

Thanks Stormy - I think we've been inundated by the HuffPo on this story.

Look forward to seeing you and the Mr. on the 24th! Also, don't forget the big AFP rally being held that day as well - a full day of Walker supporting activity!

Had I known the invasion was coming I'd have ordered up an extra number of rubber tomahawks, chinese made moccasins and started slapping Tommy Bartlett Water Show bumper stickers on them as they roll in.

Wish we'd get a heads up on these featured blurbs.

@Bob -

If I go to the water show, do I get a discount ticket for Robot World?

Too bad they tore down Xanadu: The Home of the Future.

That's because in the future, JRH, there will be no homes. Just communal high-rises. Beloved Maximum Leader Ruble has spoken, and so it shall be.

Hi James and Stormy. So you're going to a big AFP wingding on the 24th eh? I presume AFP means Americans for Prosperity, the big Koch Brothers funded astroturf organization that spreads their propaganda? Well, if you are going to obediantly spread their propaganda talking points and support their puppet Walker, you may as well take their food and drink too!

I actually went to the first AFP meeting in Virginia a few years ago with some very conservative friends of mine. No one could tell me who was funding the event, though I and others wondered who it was. Took me about 6 months to find out. Now it is common knowledge.

I call on all principled Republicans to rebuke their wealthy Koch/AFP overlords, think for yourselves and regain the integrity of your Grand Old Party!

@Bob -

Silly me - I completely forgot! Premier Ruble even said that he would design them after the Chicago Cabrini-Extention 'Greens' in my honor, although I personally would have preferred a closer resemblance to the Robert Taylor Homes.

Hi Bob, if I'd known that innocently clicking on a default news link on my AOL browser would make me an invader, I would have brought my own rubber tomahawks, Chinese moccasins and bumper stickers to pass out.

Just out of curiosity, is this website (Patch) considered right, left or center? I really have no idea.

@ Death Star -

I support AFP and I'm not astroturf!

What does it matter who funds what so long as you agree with the message they're perpetuating?

How is an AFP rally any different from a MoveOn.Org rally, an Organizing for America rally, an AFL-CIO rally, a NetRoots Nation rally, a Great Society rally, etc.?

And actually, we were talking about the Walker Backers rally at Brookfield Square Mall scheduled on the same day. I was merely reminding Stormy of the AFP rally.

DarkStar if you can't detect a particular bias, that's good. There's not supposed to be one. And there isn't.

You can read a description of what Patch is about at the bottom of the page. They've managed to keep it pretty much as described.

James H, to each his own and I agree with what you say. The only difference we have is that we disagree with the integrity of the facts put forth by each side. Usually I find the extremes on each side put forth equally unreliable facts, left and right. It's just in this case I think most of the AFP/Koch/Walker agenda is tailored to redound to their and their wealthy allies financial interest and not to the interest of the public, the state or the country.

It does sound like you guys are living in interesting times, regardless of which side you are on.

Who wrote that brilliant piece of philosophy? Scrooge McDuck?

And, it seems that some people need to be reminded of the basic facts of the National Debt: Reagan trippled it and Bush the Lesser doubled it. That's arithmetic, not calculus.

And Obama's looking to take it to the third power!

Wendell, it's true that you can't kill or dispossess the rich without harming society as a whole. Judging from the enormous wage/income gap in the USA, that is hardly a problem. I think that the problem is that the workers and middle class are getting the short end of the stick by big business and the government that they control with their money and outsized influence. I promise I am not a socialist, far from it.

Click on my name and it will link you to my Patch Profile - you be the judge!

Do you mean comments by others that you find offensive? You don't. If they're your own comments that you now find offensive and want to hide from others, you just delete them.

@Wendell Swegan -- I didn't see anything in your posts that was worthy of flagging, so I'm not sure what happened or why you felt one of your comments had been censored.

@Stormy -

Small world - yeah, Dorf and the Ant were both close personal associates of mine! However, just like me, the reports of their demises has been greatly exaggerated!

In fact, I think they both post on some of the local Illinois and Michigan Patches ;-)

Seriously, that's actually a pretty cool story! But if you have wiseguy connections and are holding out on me Stormy…

Scott Walker was elected. He still has support of many including some union member who see that the state's economy was in serious trouble due in part the excessive cost of the union labor. We simply must change or crash.

Jerry, you should stick to the facts and cut down on the hyperbole. Over the top rhetoric will only discredit your side. All you need to do is cite the facts and maybe check your spelling and grammar.

You have the facts on your side already. You obviously have a handle on them. Put them out there and let them speak for themselves. Hyperbolic accusations of being the Antichrist or Gubernatorial torture of children will eventually lose support for the recall.

Some of your posts start great or even have flashes of brilliance, but then you tear it all down when you go over the top.

A calm and realistic portrayal of the facts will speak much louder than fearmongering and name calling. Let your opponents make the wild accusations so that so you can then call them on it and state actual facts in rebuttal.

Remember, I'm on your side on this particular issue and am only offering this to you constructively.

@Guy Eaton -- First of all, I am not Randolph. Second, please enumerate all the people who have benefited from Gov. Walker's agenda and in what way. My property tax bill went down a whole $100. And since I no longer have children in school, I can't speak to the effects on the Waukesha Public School system.

Third, where did I ever mention Hitler or Rushdie?

@Randy1949 aka 'Randolph' -

As to your third point, perhaps Guy is speaking about your 'Associates,' however, I'm not so sure that you would publicly acknowledge owning Jerry Person as being a part of your side:-)

@Guy -

Randolph has actually proven himself to being quite independent on the Patch boards and has earned the respect of the Patch community and my personal friendship, FYI. While we rarely agree on politics, he is a worthy opponent and rarely resorts to name calling or any "Maher or Stewart-esque" tactics.

@Guy Eaton...Perspective and reality are in the eyes of the beholder. Whether one feels they have benefited or been harmed is pure perspective. At the foundation of the differences in perspective is whether one is chiefly concerned with the myths surrounding individual sovereignty or the myths surrounding communal sovereignty and the interplay between the two.

You are no different than anyone else espousing your own reality. Only one skilled enough to recognize the subjectivity of their objectivity begins to approach awareness. So far, from what you have written, you have not achieved such status.

@Guy Eaton -- I'll decide who my associates are. I don't own Jerry.

By enumerate, I mean tell me what kind of people have benefited from Gov. Walker's policies and in what way. If you make the distinction purely by union participation, you would be very wrong, and this is where your unfamiliarity with local politics shows.

People who benefited from changes in the state budget are businesses, large or small, that would hire Wisconsin workers. They are those private income taxpayers who make enough money to benefit by the ability to deduct a Medical Savings Account at the state level. Some homeowners saw their property taxes decrease. Others did not.

Those who lost out are those low-income Wisconsin workers who found their state EIC reduced or eliminated, those who found themselves no longer eligible for BadgerCare, and those who rely on public transportation, which has been reduced. These are working Wisconsin people but not in union jobs. There are also some low-income Wisconsin women who no longer have access to the free mammograms and pap smears that the Wisconsin Well Woman program used to provide. Again, they are working women whose income falls between BadgerCare and the ability to buy private coverage, since their jobs do not.

I understand about 'verse', but you mentioned Satanic. You were referring to C.S. Lewis or Ambrose Bierce, perhaps?

@Randy1949 -

You fail to mention how future generations will benefit once Walker achieves a GAAP balanced budget, as he promises to do with the next biennial, by no longer being saddled with carry over debt from past administrations and how he will achieve this by not raising taxes on the masses - a double victory for all to be sure!

How many people were effected by the EIC credit reduction exactly, and to what average detriment? If it was as bad as your side constantly claims, I figure I would have seen solid numbers by now, and yet, I can't find any. Looks like a red-herring to me!

Again, same story with BadgerCare, not to mention that Walker actually increased state contribution to the Medicaid fund - even Politifact verified this one!

How did Walker necessarily reduce any vital public transportation? He merely consolidated routes and eliminated under utilized services. If you're referring to the expensive choo-choo, we've already been over that issue time and again.

Mammograms and pap smears under the WWW program were not free, they were taxpayer funded. And of the services cut, those women are fully capable of funding such on their own by making it a priority expenditure. If they have to sacrifice a few nights out at the movies with the family to do so, I'm sorry, but that's not going to break my heart. They can either buy coverage or pay as they go, as both procedures are relatively routine and not super expensive. Why not offer regular prostate screenings for men? This is not a 'war against women,' but rather a policy promoting personal responsibility.

@Stormy -

Actually, it's best to let Jerry be Jerry as he is a total asset to our side :-)

Hi Stormy, as an out of stater who knows no one on this board, I will try to convince Jerry of that. You are quite correct that his rhetoric is way over the top, and I say that even though I share his distaste of the Walker Administration. James is also right that Jerry's rhetoric does not help his side's credibility. Even when he has valid points, they are obscured by unnecessarily vitriolic language, poor spelling and bad grammar.

Jerry, invoking the Antichrist, Hitler, Stalin etc in order to demonize your opponent does not reflect well on your side. I would also suggest you should be careful of your Walker description that alleges he tortures children. You can make the case that he is bad for education, children or whatever without accusing him of torture. Hoffa is right that your language is an asset to the other side because it makes you seem unhinged. It relects badly on the people trying to recall Walker and eventually, you will marginalize yourself.

The facts are sufficient and they speak for themselves.

Jerry, are hearing any of this?

@Dark Star -

Good luck getting through to your boy Jerry - he's been running wild with his tirades for months now.

He's the gift that keeps on giving ;-)

James Hoffa, Yuk Yuk, I'm gonna need all the help I can get, but I thought I would take a stab at it.

I've been involved in a number of political and other issues here in Virginia, right, left and center, but sometimes your most committed allies can do your cause the worst harm by not being circumspect in what they say or by having their facts wrong.

In Jerry's case, I think he has plenty of facts at hand and his committment is obvious. However, he is not circumspect in how he portrays his facts or in what he says.

So he's my boy now, huh? Yuk Yuk!

@Dark Star...Jerry is not the only one on the left that give us heartburn. He's the first that has brought torture, etc into the game. Normally I would say that the right has perfected this type of interchange to a high art form and they have their "Jerrys". Us locals know very well who are the snipers and usually ignore their nonsense.

@Lyle -

You can't deny your love for AWD, just admit it ;-)

I hear you Lyle on all your points. I know a lot of Jerrys on the right, left and center. Sometimes they are like herding cats and can be a real liability. If you can keep them focused on facts and get them to refrain from over the top rhetorical hyperbole, their level of commitment can cause them to become valuable allies. Of course, if you've been burned once by your erstwhile allies, you will often be looking over your shoulder in fear of them going off again.

Nevertheless, I can certainly understand why Jerry is totally incensed by the antics of Walker's administration and has a hard time not calling it the way he sees it. I'm furious and I am not a Democrat, don't live in Wisconsin and am not really hurt directly by his shenanigans. I am hurt though, in the precedent it sets for Virginia and other states across the USA. I am against corruption and lying regardless of what party or politician is doing it.

I am appalled by the ALEC conceived and written legislation so many Republican administrations across the country have been introducing. I think that if most people in most states knew the origin of the most controversial and partisan legislation that has been introduced across the country, they would rebel when they realized their state laws are being written by outsiders.

@Dark Star....ALEC is a very familiar organization in the State of Wisconsin. They have been fully vetted by the left and the right has been on a "spin-o-thon" to justify the Republican led legislature's dependence on the "model legislation". I am happy to see that discerning people are watching Wisconsin's experiment in Ayn Rand's ideal society. ALEC is a favorite subject of a Patch follower by the name of "Bren". She drives Hoffa to distraction because she can't right a comment without bringing ALEC and the Koch Brothers into the thread.

I look at the previous fourteen months and see a systematic effort to take the State back to the "Gilded Age". But for the most extreme the goal isn't the "Gilded Age", they are interested in resurrecting the Articles of Confederation. This neo-libertarianism is pushing to the extreme and essentially asking for Plutocratic control of anarchism. The shocking point is that otherwise reasonable people are buying into this tripe.

Lyle, thanks for the insights. Bren huh? Sounds like she is focused on exposing a very important thing. I might propose to her if I wasn't in a stable and happy multi-decade relationship with my brilliant mate Catherine.

Yes, that is what has deeply disturbed me about the Republican party in recent years too. They have been looking ever more backward to a non-existent American utopia of the past, choosing to remember only what they want. They deify a gilded image of Ronald Reagan who could never get nominated in today's Republican Party, but they all claim to carry his mantle.

I agree that the most extreme seem to want an arrangement more like the Articles of Confederation than our current federal structure. Too much of that in VA too. Between their current war on voting rights, women's rights, union rights, minority rights and immigrant rights, it is just shocking they dare to call themselves the party of liberty when the truth is manifestly opposite of that. Party of greed and demonization is more like it.

I don't see how people can buy into it either, even with milllions and millions of Koch dollars funding the whole deal. I guess if you and your brother have way over Forty billion dollars you can buy a lot of propaganda to demonize a lot of people, scare a lot of people, manipulate a lot of people and the system to your personal benefit. Did you know that the Koch Brothers father, Fred Koch, was one of the founders of the John Birch Society?

@Dark Star...The Koch Brothers are too visible and more easily traced. Of more interest are the funding institutions that don't pop up in the main stream media. If you haven't already, start researching the Bradley Foundation, the DeVoss Foundation and the Prinz Foundation. They were also up to their eyeballs in the John Birch Society, especially Harry Bradley. Unlike the Kochs, who are primarily fiscal conservatives and really don't give a hang about social conservatism, Bradley, DeVoss and Prinz are all social conservative focused along with extreme fiscal conservatism. Don't overlook that Wisconsin and Milwaukee was a center for the prewar Bund Movement. Also, Milwaukee is the most racially segregated city in the U.S.

Another factoid is that the Speaker of the State Assembly is Jeff Fitzgerald, his brother, Scott Fitzgerald is the Senate Majority Leader, and their father was appointed State Commander of the State Troopers by Scott Walker.

If you really want to tap into what's up with the left, check out fightingbob.com. It is managed by a progressive attorney by the name of Ed Garvey.

Get back to me if you want any other information.

Ah yes, you lefties and your grand conspiracy theories!

Once again Lyle, you can't show a single thing that Walker has done to the sole benefit of the Koch Bros, can you? But at least you've managed to properly assess our Bren's affinity for ALEC and the Kochs!

Thanks Lyle, some of that I didn't know, some I had forgotten and some I already knew. Speaking of factoids, here is one that just occurred to me and is probably one reason I follow Wisconsin politics more than in most states.

In 1973 -1975, during my last two years of high school in Roanoke Virginia (Western Va) I had a very conservative advanced government teacher who was in the John Birch Society. I remember the government teacher had news articles, Nazi propaganda posters and other items on the wall to scare students into being ferarful of the creeping socialist menace. I remember one was an article about the former card carrying Socialist Mayor of Milwaukee, Frank Zeidler. Because of the era, I wondered how that could be. I figured he must have been a pretty good mayor for the population to tolerate that during that era, despite my distaste for socialism, especially at that time.

Seldom thought about it until living many years in Williamsburg Va where I attended William and Mary. Recently, we had our long time Mayor, Jeanne Zeidler, retire from office. She is married to one of my old history professors who has just published a book.

About 20 years ago I learned she was the daughter of Frank Zeidler and the neice of Carl Zeidler, another Milwaukee Mayor who resigned in 1942 to fight during WWII and was killed. I expressed my condolences when I read her father Frank died in 2010. That was a rough year for Jeanne Zeidler because her only son died too.

@TMooreTXK -

The big difference between a CEO and a public sector bus driver is that the CEO is employed by a for profit entity while the public sector bus driver is employed by the collective will and for the benefit of the taxpaying public.

Hopefully, I've enlightened your out-of-state perspective on this issue!

@JRH...Non-profits also have CEOs. Whether a service is performed by public or private entity, a cost is associated with it. Private providers come out of your private pocket while public providers come out of your tax pocket. One way or another you're paying for it. The only difference is that if it's a private service you can chose if you want to partake of such. With public we pay a little for the benefit of all.

@Lyle -

And autonomy of choice is what we in this country value more than anything, isn't it? Wasn't that why settlers first came this land, even if they didn't always practice the concept as fully as we would have liked them to.

Indeed, you got me there Lyle - I should have said autonomy of choice within reason, as the government was set-up to decide and enforce reasonableness.

JRH,
The "enforce reasonableness" is a crazy slippery slope. It is a subjective measure, which would allow some freedoms to be encroached and others not based off the beliefs of the people currently in charge. I can't agree with that assertion.

@Say What? -

Define it however you'd like, but what is a law other than a mass consensus on that which is considered reasonable? People don't believe that it's reasonable for one to wantingly take the life of another, therefore we have laws against murder. Decisions issued from courts are called 'opinions,' as they represent a personal decision about the interpretation of that which is considered reasonable at a moment in time.

The term 'reasonable' is wholly subjective, quite dynamic, and dependent upon individual perspective as there is no true universal or ultimate truth, correct? The most we can ever hope to attain as humans is a mass consensus and attempt to govern such as objectively, effectively, and efficiently as possible.

But, if you prefer another term, be my guest - it really makes no difference what you call it, as it's all the same, isn't it?

I agree that this is how it is occurring, I disagree that this is how it was intended.

thinking outside of the box would be considered a liberal idea. not very conservative.

@jt 'john' -

Your logic is so flawed, I don't even know where to start!

Try again.

JRH,
Your accusation is just as unfounded. Try again.

On a serious note, If we did lose 150k jobs prior to Walker, and the unemployment is as low as it is as compared to pre Walker, what could be the explanation on how we got from there to here. I am obviously incredibly ignorant but would like to be enlightened. Can you help?

@hoffa, as a man of few words, i am glad to see that i can still get under the skin of a longwinded person like you. i state facts, and you spew tyraids of big words and propaganda. that's why i like messing with you, you are easily worked into a frenzy!

Jerry Person, a man deeply committed to your cause, goes into frenzies - not Hoffa!

The error lies in the conclusion of Walker being a liar. Context is the essence of fair understanding people - do I really need to explain that to both jt 'john' and Say What??

hoffa, you really should have called yourself william schatner. the big giant head role from third rock from the sun fits you well. and your sooo good at science fiction!

@jt 'john' -

I love William Shatner and science fiction! I actually met him once at a hotel bar in Milwaukee about 12 years ago and ended up having an hour long conversation with him. We got along quite well!

Your comparison of Hoffa to Shatner is very flattering indeed - thanks for the compliment!

@Wendell Swegan...Before you go off on what socialism is and what is not, you better do some serious study and research. As it is now your statements only are a reflection of your considerable ignorance.

@Dark Star...The investigation of Walker's office when he was Milwaukee County Executive is being investigated as a "John Doe" investigation. The Milwaukee District Attorney is heading up the investigation and he's a Democrat. I don't think anyone in the general public knows what is going on. So far the net has collected some close Walker staffers. You have to be careful of the left spinning this. He has not been charged or convicted of anything, in fact it would be pure supposition to think that he's even under investigation. Walker is a pretty sharp cookie and I'm sure he plays the game of "plausible deniability".

@Lyle -

You conveniently forgot to mention that Walker was the one that first went to the feds and insisted upon such an investigation being conducted.

@Dark Star -

BTW - We prefer to be called Wisconsinites!

James Hoffa, i hear you. I'm not sure why I reverted to Wisconsonian from Wisconsonite which is what I elected to say in all my other posts. Its good to know what people prefer.

Born Free, you may be right about that. From what I hear, it is more likely he will be in Illinois with several years worth of reservations in the Crowbar Hotel. At least he could gain a better understanding of how some of his budget cuts hurts the lowest members of society. He already knows how to help the most wealthy and powerful people, which he has demonstrated quite well.

Daily kos is giving you the liberal talking points again Dark Star?

Hi Steve. Just logging on, reading the paper or turning on the TV probably gives most Americans more talking points than they want on this matter. I think people keep watching though. Just like it's hard to avert your eyes from a train wreck. It's painful, you can't believe it, you want to stop it, but it keeps coming so you watch it. You can't help yourself. It's like Watergate, John Edward's saga or the 2012 Republican Primaries. Too awful for words.

Maybe all of the taxpayer dollars wasted on Voter ID could be earmarked to help support public education or help fund the State's decaying infrastructure.

@Wendell Swegan...Without writing a "white paper" on the Soviet Union and Soviet style communism, the reason that the USSR failed was because they were a totalitarian regime. I agree that full socialism and many of Marx's and Engel's principles are incorrect and are not sustainable. I am a social democrat and I believe in regulated capitalism. There has been and currently a tension between the competing philosophies of sovereign individualism and sovereign communalism.

I am pleased that your spouse was able to successfully immigrate. I personally helped to resettle over 300 hundred families in the late 1980s and early 1990s. I agree that our nation is one of greatness and I would welcome a return to non-partisan governance.

@Wendell Swegan...Ideally, a socialist country is not totalitarian but egalitarian, with leadership rotating through the population. However, this is one of the faults of Marxism, it is only theoretical. The hunter-gatherer societies of are communistic and truly socialistic. However, for it to work, groups cannot usually exceed 25 to 30 people and they are generally related as an extended family.

Our nation is based on compromise between the rights of the individual and the rights of the communal group. It swings back and forth like a pendulum; at times swinging in favor of individual rights and swinging back to communal rights. What is currently troubling the nation is extremism. We work best when we govern from the middle. Part of that process is maintaining a balance of power between the three branches of government. A major issue in Wisconsin is that all three branches are controlled by very conservative forces and there isn't anyway to balance and reach compromise. Therefore, the opposition needs to regain control of at least one of the branches.

@Wendell Swegan...Our nation was founded by white plutocrats (wealth and power held in only a few hands). This has remained throughout our history. Again back to the pendulum illustration; when wealth is held in too few hands, the lower and middle classes expand and are driven downwards economically. The "Gilded Age" (1850 to 1920) is a prime example. That was the time of the "Robber Barons" with extreme wealth and power. The Progressive Movement which had its genesis beginning in the 1890s began pushing back against this Plutocracy. Names from that era include J.P. Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, J. Gould, the Vanderbilt family, the Roosevelt family, E. H. Harriman, etc. The Progressive Movement began using the power of the government to redistribute the power back to the lower and middle classes. The union movements were in response to the absolute corruption and poor working conditions created by owners in pursuit of profits and the exploitation of the working classes. Through the process of collective bargaining the true middle class was created and workers rights established.

As far as Wisconsin's unions, the public employee unions, except for the teachers, have been relatively weak in comparison to their private sector counterparts. The unions were not breaking the state, it was all designed as a manipulation to cut off funding to the Democratic Party since unions almost exclusively support Democrats. (continued)

@Wendell Swegan...(continued) What the Republican Party has been accused of is attempting to create a one party conservative state, when at least half the state are more moderate or liberal. The conservative movement is supported by the plutocracy to maintain and grow they wealth and power. Under extreme conservatism people are actually less free and their choices are more limited. You are only 6 years older than me and you remember very well the banned books, censured comedians, Sunday "blue laws", restrictions against buying birth control without being married, against the law to be homosexual, no interracial marriages, etc.

What many don't realize is that we are continue to borrow because we are not bringing in too little revenue. Taxes have been too low for thirty years and the government has fought two wars without funding them. We have spent too much on military and not enough on infrastructure.

Hi Wendell and Lyle. I'm impressed by the civil and substantive discussion you guys are having on socialism. I would even say the US is already socialist in several areas such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Nearly everyone was fine with them until it was pointed out they are actually socialist programs. Perhaps people have forgotten that before Social Security, old age was a sentence of poverty for most people. Before Medicare, the US life expectancy was much shorter. Before Medicaid, the really poor had all sorts of endemic and contagious diseases that caused all sorts of problems.

Wendell and Lyle are right that the US has unwisely spent way too much. Especially by borrowing to finance several counterproductive military adventures and increasing numbers of military bases around the world. A few Trillion dollars would have solved the solvency problems of Social Security and Medicare. Thanks, oh wise and great leaders!!

Lyle is right that the US tax burden is lower than it has been in over a generation. Especially for the very wealthy whose effective tax rates have really gone down, causing the US deficit to explode, poverty to rise, income disparity to widen and our infrastructure to decline.

That being said, there is validity to Wendell's criticisms of Democrat tendencies to overspend on nannystate programs, new classes of victims and occasionally, poorly planned entitlements that hinder self-reliance and/or self initiative in favor of handouts.

@Wendell Swegan...Look at the Scandinavian nations and you will find the largest middle classes with good wealth distribution. They are all social democracies and have the most stable societies.

The United States has been the strongest economy since the Second World War. If you remember, we were the only industrial economy left intact after the war. We easily transitions from building tanks and aircraft over to washing machines and cars. We rebuilt the rest of the world's manufacturing base, plus we had fifteen years of pent up domestic demand after the Depression and the War. We had unprecedented growth for about 15 years and the middle class grew as well to unprecedented heights. As other nation's economies came on line the world markets began to be segmented. What that has shifted wealth was the switch over to supply side economics and it is also responsible for shipping jobs overseas.

Lyle's example of the Scandinavian countries as examples of Democratic Socialism actually producing the happiest people, longer lives, better health and more stable societies is true.

That being said, I suspect much of Europe would be spending more on their militaries if they weren't being protected by US dominated NATO or the US nuclear umbrella. Nevertheless, they are good models which by and large have peaceful and reasonable people and governments.

Even France and Brittain with their socialized medicine have an average life span about two years longer than Americans. Considering what the US spends on healthcare per capita, we are definitely not getting what we pay for. In fact I think we are getting ripped off in what is called a free market system, except that it isn't. It's rigged.

Though I am not a huge fan of "Obamacare", it may turn out to be better than the status quo which is the real train wreck bearing down upon us. What kills me is that the whole issue of the premium mandate that most Republican states are challenging in court as an unconstitutional government takeover of healthcare, isn't that at all. It was a Republican idea that emerged as a response to the Hillary-Care proposal of the early 1990's. It came from the Heritage Foundation and was based on personal responsibility, self reliance and paying your way. They loved it until Obama adopted it and now it is portrayed as a Socialist Death Panel menace that will kill Americans. Jeez!

hey wendell, have you ever owned a steel mill? i found a kind of funny story about that!

@Wendell Swegan...Let's set the record straight. Think about having pants with two pockets. In one pocket is what you pay for privately and the other pocket is what you pay for with taxes. No matter the service or product you're going to pay out of one pocket or another. In Northern Europe you pay out of the tax pocket but less out of the private pocket. Here it's the opposite, where we pay more out of the private pocket than we do out of the tax pockect. Unfortunately we get a lot less for our dollar than they do. They get universal health care, universal retirement, universal education all the way through university, medical school is free tuition, etc. Compare us in Wisconsin to Denmark. We have about the same population. They live longer, have better overall health, better educated and are rated as one of the most satisfied nation in the world.

There are quite a few entrepreneurs and they are strong capitalists. Denmark's wages are comperable to ours in Wisconsin and they have as much or more incentive as we do.

Yeah Wendell, I also agree that too many Dems would be willing to carbon tax our economy to death without demanding reciprocation from economies like India and China that bring on a new Coal fired plant every week. We could stop emitting all carbon in the US, and without China, India, Brazil, Korea etc, there'd be very little difference except that we would be more uncompetitive and soon be broke. That's not to say that we shouldn't reduce air pollution and persuade others to do it too. It's worth Googling John McCain's take on air pollution and Climate Change during the 2008 campaign. It's on the web from various campaign speeches and is pretty reasonable.

Lyle, your Denmark example is right on. I drove up to a fisheries conference in Wash DC last week and ended up talking for two hours to a Danish guy named Paul at a New Zealand Seafood reception. Most of what you said about Danes could apply to him too. We had a lively, wideranging and substantive discussion comparing American, Danish and international politics and issues. He seemed happy to talk to an American who actually knew a little about Danish politics, culture and other European issues. He was with an international fishery group.

When I asked him for critiques or observations of various American political and other issues, he had some keen answers. One that sticks with me was his characterization of how and why some American's had not absorbed certain lessons learned in The Enlightenment.

@JRH ...Yup! How you doing? I've seen you splashing around on other threads. Doesn't seem like much has changed. How big a turnout do you think you'll get on the 25th? It would be nice if you could beat the turnout that you had at Hart Park. Are you expecting any protestors or will the Mall control that for you? Just curious.

@Lyle -

Good evening! I'm doing pretty well, although I'd much rather be where I was the previous weekend, if you catch my drift ;-)

No, not very much has changed, has it. We're expecting anywhere between 100-200 people at the mall event. The event was never intended to be that large scale, but rather an opportunity to get the dedicated Walker activists together before we started going full steam into the recall campaign effort. We expect some protestors, as you've probably been able to tell via Keith Schmitz and company's reactions to our event on the Patch boards.

It's nice to see you having a nice conversation with Wendell - I've been passively following along.

We should really try and get together sometime in persona, as I'd love to meet you.

Have a great night!