Joseph, the reality is that those who are uninsured go to emergency rooms, and are treated (as is required by law). These unfunded costs are then passed on to the rest of us, through increased insurance premiums, or coverage through tax-supported programs.

The alternative is to say that those who are not insured will not receive any medical care that they cannot pay cash for, and therefore will be left to die on the road, at the emergency room doors, or in their homes.

This does not seem to me to consistent with beliefs regarding the value of life that so many fiscal and social conservatives preach.

This does not seem to me to consistent with beliefs regarding the value of life that so many fiscal and social conservatives preach.... I guess it is consistent to FORCE people by gunpoint or fines or jail time to steal their labor ... Wow here i thought i worked for myself .. now i must work hours a day to pay for other people ..Hmmm sounds like slavery ... but i guess slavery is consistent with big government ideology

@Concerned Shorewood Resident -

Your conclusions are premised upon the FALSE notion that all uninsured people don't pay their incurred medical bills. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Hoffa doesn't have health care insurance, preferring to be self-insured on ideological grounds. When ever Hoffa has utilized health care services, whether that be through a clinic or emergency room, Hoffa has always paid his bills.

Try again!

There's an old Federal law -
- When a person shows up at an ER they must be given medical care.
. - So what happens if they have no insurance???
The hospital uses money from covered people, in a sense overcharging for their services.
This is the reason everyone needs insurance or government paid coverage like Medicaid, Medicare, Badgercare. (That's called single payer.)
When everyone is covered, Insurance rates will drop for 3 reasons - Younger people will have coverage. - More people will be paying for insurance. - Ins companies now have to use 80% of premiums collected to pay claims.
Bottom line - All care is paid for now and the new system will not incur additional costs, taxes or personal.
Thus the BS that Romneycare, now known as Obamacare will add costs to the American healthcare system is BS. It's all being paid for now.
- WOW this sounds good.
.Why is Romney so humble about taking credit for these changes????
Final note - This is not socialized medicine. The VA system is socialized medicine because the buildings are owned by the federal govt and all staff members are fed employees.

@Eugene -

You must not have read Hoffa's previous post in this thread, otherwise, you'd realize that the key to your argument is based upon the faulty presumption that the insured already pay for the health care of the uninsured, and that such a premise as a generalized statement is utter NONSENSE!

Hoffa is uninsured. Hoffa utilizes health care only when he needs to. And whenever Hoffa does utilize health care services, he always pays his bills and always will pay his bills. Hoffa also saves up his own money in a segregated account to cover any unforeseen health care expenses that may arise in the future. So, how exactly does the hospital use "money from covered people," to pay my bill, when I've already paid for it myself?

The problem is with lowlifes that don't pay their bills. And instead of punishing the lowlifes, your solution is restrict the freedoms of the righteous - wow, how very American of you, NOT!

NO - everyone does not need coverage, they just need to pay their damn bills as they incur them! It's called taking personal responsibility for one's self in life.

"When everyone is covered, Insurance rates will drop for 3 reasons - Younger people will have coverage. - More people will be paying for insurance. - Ins companies now have to use 80% of premiums collected to pay claims."

Yeah, I already debunked all of these talking point claims in my further posts on this board, if you actually took the time to read them before you posted this nonsense!

BTW - Did all of those things happen in the microcosm of Mass after the implementation of Romneycare? I'll help you out on this one - NO. Instead, did the costs of health care go up in that state - indeed, they did.

But, if you insist that everything you're stating here is fact, then would you care to put your money where your mouth is and offer to cover the increases incurred in the costs of healthcare coverage for everyone posting on this board from this day forward if the ACA is not repealed? You're so confident that costs will go down for everyone under Obama's plan, then what reason do you have not accept this wager?

Try laying off the Daily Kos next time - it's really affecting your judgment!

The law does not require treatment. It requires stabilization.

You mean like it did in Massachusetts? I love Romneycare!

Mr or Ms Deep,
Where did your information come from??
Here are the real facts, That's if you change your mind and decide to partake in facts.
There's an old Federal law -
- When a person shows up at an ER they must be given medical care.
. - So what happens if they have no insurance???
The hospital uses money from covered people, in a sense overcharging for their services.
This is the reason everyone needs insurance or government paid coverage like Medicaid, Medicare, Badgercare. (That's called single payer.)
When everyone is covered, Insurance rates will drop for 3 reasons - Younger people will have coverage. - More people will be paying for insurance. - Ins companies now have to use 80% of premiums collected to pay claims.
Bottom line - All care is paid for now and the new system will not incur additional costs, taxes or personal.
Thus the BS that Romneycare, now known as Obamacare will add costs to the American healthcare system is BS. It's all being paid for now.
- WOW this sounds good.
.Why is Romney so humble about taking credit for these changes????
Final note - This is not socialized medicine. The VA system is socialized medicine because the buildings are owned by the federal govt and all staff members are fed employees.
?And why do you hide behind a made up name? Scared of the truth every which way except going forward in life?
Lets here more from you.
- But how about facts next time.

Jason .. don't you think there is other ways to go about this then forcing people by gunpoint with fines or jail time to help your brother ... I guess when the government forces people to pay it makes you feel better since you are disconneted from actually forcing people yourself to pay

In the state of Wisconsin Health insurance is available, since 1979, for people with pre-existing conditions;no one is for rejected for coverage based on a pre-exiting condition;it's called Health Insurance Risk Sharing Pool(HIRSP). Here is the rate table: http://hirsp.org/pdfs/rates-standard-2012.pdf . Although you indicate that your brother pays income taxes, one can have the premium costs subsidized if they are low income.

Johnny Blade: Could you give us more details regarding people being "forced at gunpoint" to help pay for other people's care or to steal your labor. If you want people to take your arguments seriously, you'll have to tone-down the accusations.

Nice factual reply.
Jason do you like people who spread unfounded rumors????

No, private industry should be out of health insurance. Of course this is a waste of precious time, assuming that a right winger comprehends things, but any government run health care plan does a much better jobs of using most of the money they are entrusted to actually provide health care.

Schmitzy -

Thankfully, the federal government doesn't actually provide any health care services, except to veterans. Do you honestly think that VA hospitals are run more effectively and efficiently than private hospitals? I think a lot of veterans would take issue with your presumptions on this matter!

I think you should take a look at what happened in Mass. after the introduction of Romney-care, the model for Obamacare. Healthcare costs did not decline and they continue to be some of the highest in the nation. It's been predicted that premiums, overall, will increase as insurance companies are forced to take on more and more risk. Availability is also expected to suffer, at least into the foreseeable future, due to the increase of folks utilizing healthcare services.

While it's no doubt a good thing that healthcare be made more accessible, there are costs associated with achieving that goal. It's best to be honest about them, rather than trying to sell the program on merits it most likely exhibit once fully in place.

s.b. "...most likely won't exhibit.."

@Wind Point Resident -

Again, you make the same erroneous argument as Concerned Shorewood Resident by premising your conclusion on the falsehood presumption that uninsured people don't pay their health care bills.

To the contrary, Hoffa is self insured, which means that he pays his bills as he utilizes health care services. Hoffa doesn't purchase health care insurance because he sees it as a bad investment, not to mention on ideological grounds, even though he could easily afford coverage.

Insurance isn't the answer - it's the problem!

I fear any governmental healthcare program. Our relatives in Germany and the Netherlands have had issues once you reach an age where the government decides that if you get cancer, you are too old at 60 to have it treated. I believe we can all be in for the same treatment. Everyone is looking at what is in it for "me" and not what it could mean to those that have worked hard and payed taxes only to be denied the care they should receive. How many will be turned away here in the states? Nothing is free, but I can't feel that we are not getting the full message on how this will be administered in the future. Your brother may be told, too bad, but a cure is not available and your life isn't worth the cost. It has happened to families in Europe we love, and it can happen here.

Haven't you ever heard of the Public Health Care Dept? Badger Care? HIRSP? WIC? Educate people about what's available! Wisconsin does take care of people. Are "children" going to be treated as such until they are 40? What about learning how to stand on your own two feet and have some self-respect???????????

Mandy, Rick Santorum claimed that geriatric euthanasia was practiced in the Netherlands and that lie was summarily debunked. Is that what you remember hearing about the Netherlands? Please provide some specific details about what your relatives were told (diagnosis, proposed treatment plan, etc.). Thanks,

Kathy, are you familiar with the organizations you mentioned? I believe those programs are in place for the poorest in our state only. And Scott Walker just knocked thousands of people off BadgerCare so that's not an option either.

So it's a recession and unemployment is very high. Recent college graduates are up against people with years of experience on their resume who are willing to work for entry-level wages. You shouldn't disrespect them for an economic situation that developed long before they entered the workforce.

Wind Point, most of your facts are great except one.
General fund money is not used for Medicare.
Medicare is fully funded by specific payroll deductions.

So somebody's kid comes down with cancer or their husband needs heart surgery, and they don't have $500,000 laying around, what happens to them?

There's a lot that we pay for in this society that we'll never get to use, like a road linking Superior with Ashland. Does that mean we shouldn't collectively pay for it?

@Schmitzy -

The difference being that we'd all have an equal opportunity to use the road linking Superior with Ashland if we desired to do so, however, we couldn't all equally have the opportunity to benefit from a heart surgery. What if the heart surgery recipient ended up turning into the next Jeffrey Dahmer - would you still consider it to be a worth while social investment?

The question Keith is why am I paying for it? Do you really need to try and tug on our heartstrings every time you bring up health care. Yes I feel for the child that comes down with cancer, or the spouse that needs heart surgery. The question is, WHY don't they have health insurance that cover that themselves?

The same thing that happened in Massachusetts will happen with Barack Hussein Obamacare. People will pay for the lower "don't insure me tax" until they need care, at which time they will get the insurance they need because we now cover pre-existing conditions. Then, once their health care needs are met, they go back to paying the tax.

I'm sorry to say, but if someone takes the option of not being insured THAT IS THEIR CHOICE!!! They are the ones that need to live with it.

Even today, patients in need are not turned away from hospitals. As mentioned numerous times, the rest of us foot the bill to cover them. THIS WILL NOT CHANGE UNDER BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMACARE!!!

Roads are paid for appropriately, with monies collected from tax on gasoline. you drive on a public road, that tax goes towards building and maintaining them.

So in effect Jimmy, your solution is let these people die.

I used to think that even though I didn't agree with your opinions Jimmy you still were a regional individual, but your Dahmer argument is pure stupidity, to justify a sociopathic point.

An Auntie, you continue to play the blowhard ignorant fool. Many times those people don't have insurance because they can't afford it or because of pre-existing conditions, can't get it.

Gotta pull away from this blog. The stupidity is just too damned overwhelming.

Yes Auntie, we get his middle name is Hussein, and we get that racists use it as a form of dog whistle.

@Schmitzy -

To the contrary, I'm not saying that at all.

What I am saying is that they should have to contribute as much as they can towards their care. That means no cell phones, no satellite tv, no home internet connection, or in other words no luxuries period until they completely pay off their health care bills. This can be accomplished via a lifetime payment plan, liquidation of non-essential property, etc. But I do except personal accountability.

The problem is that people that think as you do wouldn't want to work solely for necessities and to pay off their health care bills, especially if the government is willing to kick in with a bunch of taxpayer provided handouts!

Who ever said that life/nature was fair? But we can either suck it up and make the best of it OR wallow in our own self-pity and let everyone else pay our way. The choice is up to the individual.

I'm all for a government implemented catastrophic care plan, so long as it's not abused. But for regular menial and preventative care, everyone should be made to directly pay their own way, as insurance was never designed to cover these types of foreseen / expected events, was it?

No one ever said life is fair and it is totally in your imagination that people want a free ride. But our job as Christians is make life less unfair.

And your idea on preventative care is nuts. The more people take advantage of preventative care the less more expensive care we need down the road. For example -- http://cognidissidence.blogspot.com/2012/07/of-tax-breaks-and-tb-outbreaks.html.

Your resentments and hatred of people Jimmy make for very bad policy. So is the idea that we have to go with less so that rich bastards can have more is just plain subservience. We've seen enough of how bogus populism is creating a free ride for those who have enough already at our expense.

Keith, between Medicaid and BadgerCare, there is NO excuse for not having health insurance. I take it back, there are those that would rather spend their minimal contribution on beer, cigarettes and GOD knows what else for short term gratification.

And I am using Barack Hussein Obama the same way you and your ilk like to use Richard Milhouse Nixon! There is nothing racist about it when it IS his name!

It's a shame you are too ignorant to know YOUR ignorance!

Linda, the RFID chip is a debunked conspiracy theory. A registry (database) of medical equipment/device users is being created to measure safety and effectiveness, that's it. Conversations about establishing a national medical database have been going on for at least 8-10 years. A RFID chip is a type of medical implant device used in catheters, types of hearing aids, etc.

@Linda -

I'm going to agree with Bren on this point, as Public Law 111-148, otherwise known as the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) doesn't even have 1000 pages, much less 1008 pages. The total length of the legislation spans 906 pages total, and I could find no reference to any kind of imbedded microchip.

While I'm no fan of this legislation, although Bren is, I do prefer to perpetuate the truth instead of a bunch of nonsensical conspiracy theories, as that is a tactic and province of the left - and not true conservatives that value the truth above all else.

You can download your own e-copy of the ACA (Obamacare) here:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ148/pdf/PLAW-111publ148.pdf

"The ignorance displayed by some posters here is astonishing'...

Don't know why Bren. It's on display here all the time.

Exactly Keith. Sometimes I wonder where you, Bren, Lyle and the other Socialists, got your education.

@Bren -

And here will be the consequences of your enumerated components of the wonderful ACA:

1. The laying off and/or off-shoring of millions of insurance jobs. This will also act to limit the amount of competition that private insurers will be capable of instituting without really exploiting the labor markets. Move over India, US insurance providers will be moving the bulk of their operations to the African continent.

2. Higher taxes on the working classes to help pay for these premiums.

3. Why would anyone insure a pre-existing condition? The definition of insurance is "a form of risk management primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent, uncertain loss." Pre-existing conditions are a known risk, thus inappropriate for insurance. Why doesn't the person with a pre-existing condition just directly pay for the care of the pre-existing condition themselves, just as Hoffa always pays for his medical care as he utilizes it?

4. Punishes everyone due to the actions of low-lifes that don't pay their bills. Instead of protecting the righteous, we're kowtowing to the lowlifes because apparently, that's what America has turned into. Make everyone pay under guise of preventing free ridership just so the collective can pay for even more free and/or subsidized riders on the system. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense all right - only to a liberal!

5. It requires many small business to participate in a costly and broken system. Again, get ready for mass layoffs and the continued off-shoring of our industrial base.

If these points represent the best that the ACA has to offer, and everything else is even worse, then we definitely need to repeal this horrible POS!

@Schmitzy -

Only because the lefties, such as yourself, insist on displaying their ignorance on this forum ;-)

Keith, I know that it is our constant companion here on Patch but on this issue, which directly impacts every American it is ridiculous.

Mr. Hoffa, do you not believe that there are already offshored medical jobs? One of the more recent is having x-rays read in India. This is another reason why a national health care plan should be established. If insurance companies begin laying off employees the federal government should respond with a public option and subcontract these experienced workers, using Medicaid as the baseline model. There will always be a place for privatized health insurance for those special people who want to pay more. Under a NHS doctors would actually get paid. They would receive an honest U&C fee which might be a little lower than what they would like to charge, but there'd be cash in the drawer, few insurance company battles (for special people), and more time to serve patients (volume).

People who would have to buy insurance are those who earn over $50k household or $26k individually, are over age 26, and coverage is less than 8% of total annual income. It's better for all Americans if more people pay toward their own insurance, instead of having to foot the bill for higher cost emergency care.

@Bren -

Wouldn't it be easier just to require everyone utilizing emergency care to pay for it directly? Insurance should be reserved for use only in catastrophic situations, as was always the intention.

So Bren since you understand this, please help me out.
If a 24 year old man (adult child) is married to a 24 year old woman and they are having a child (child child). Both the man and the woman are gainfully employed and are offered health insurance through their jobs. Both have opted to be covered by their parents employers. Due to complications the baby is premature. Who pays for the care of the newborn, at the time of birth?

The ignorance displayed by some posters here is astonishing, you are right, starting with you. you come out with this 80/20 to limit flagrant profiterring by insurance companies, it sounds good and should be able to work, but it won't! you forget that this president will include over 40 millions people including the undoctmented and many of them are out of work, this will bring down or crash our Economy. By next year you will bring home a lot less money from your check of all the extra taxes that you pay. as you said the ignorant display is astonishing. If this ACA is so great, then why is this dicator forcing his views and policies on us? he is using the IRS as his muscle goons, I call that extortion, real nice guy isn't he.
and ready, the dollar will crash thanks to his bright ideas. so take that !

Greg, as I understand it married offspring aren't eligible.

Sally, your post is interesting to say he least. As I posted elsewhere, there are income levels involved with this insurance. It helps people who were previously uninsured due to pre-existing conditions especially. I would prefer a national health care plan myself but this is a way to get people insured. Let's see how much taxes will go up. Pres. Obama is to be credited for saving the economy from crashing and logically would not introduce legislation that would crash it. This is the U.S.A., we don't have a "dictator." The IRS is not "muscle goons." They are very fair in working with people who are upfront with them.

Our last president did a pretty good job of bringing about a "crash" with his unfunded wars and massive tax cuts for rich people. I'm confident our current president's (and Mitt Romney's) concept will be beneficial if the insurance companies don't try to game the system with offshoring as Mr. Hoffa discussed above. I'm sure a few legislative "tweaks" will be needed but let's stay positive. Our pre-ACA health insurance system is a massive, tragic joke.

Bren, Under the law both 24 year olds would be covered as described.
Try again.

Greg, I'll look into it further as I have time (a luxury item right now!).

I'll be happy to help, if you like.
Here's another one for your spare time: Why couldn't the bicycle stand on it's own?

Correction, I would be happy to help, to a point. We may need Nancy Pelosi to explain to us the full details.
The question assumes that the parents employers do not want to extend coverage to the grandchildren.
The bicycle could not stand on it's own because it was two tired.

Your children can join or remain on your plan even if they are:

•married
•not living with you
•attending school
•not financially dependent on you
•eligible to enroll in their employer’s plan

The market needs to open so the decision can emerge.

@Sally...Where are you getting this 40 million number?

Sally do you have a few minutes for facts?
Here are some real facts,
There's an old Federal law -
- When a person shows up at an ER, white skin or other, they must be given medical care. Including white skin Motorcyclists without insurance who had accidents.
- So what happens if they have no insurance???
The hospital uses money from covered people, in a sense overcharging for their services.
This is one reason everyone needs insurance or govt paid coverage like Medicaid, Medicare, Badgercare. (That's called single payer.)
When everyone is covered, Insurance rates will drop for 3 reasons - Younger people will have coverage. - More people will be paying for insurance. - Ins companies now have to use 80% of premiums collected to pay claims.
Bottom line - All care is paid for now and the new system will not incur additional costs, taxes or personal.
Thus the BS that Romneycare, now known as Obamacare will add costs to the American healthcare system is BS. It's all being paid for now.
- WOW this sounds good.
.Why is Romney so humble about taking credit for these changes????
Final note - This is not socialized medicine. However the VA system is because the buildings are owned by the Federal govt and all staff members are Fed employees.
Sally, many thanks for reading facts, I hope you consider them wisely.
Keith & I would like to read more from you.
- But how about all facts next time.

@Eugene -

You're a broken record repeating the same crap over and over again - stop polluting this board, please. You only need to make your point once. Any idiot can cut from the Daily Kos, paste, hit the reply button, and repeat over and over and over again, as you've already proven on this board.

Instead of blindly perpetuating the talking points and asserting they're facts, how about you actually try defending them against the logical and rational arguments that have been made to the contrary? Or is independent thought beyond your natural abilities?

@Sally....Sorry, but you seem to have problems with numbers. Last I knew we had only 50 states and perhaps 14 million undocumented aliens.

I thought it was 57 states?

Barack Hussein thinks there are 57 states and he is the smartest man on the planet.

57 states and territories, as answered the last time someone who was sleeping during class brought this up.

@Roland -

Umm... yeah, you don't even realize it, but you're preaching the exact same message as the established political machines that you claim to hate - to point the finger and blame everyone else for our problems. After all, there must be a big bad boogeyman behind the scenes causing all of our problems, right? And for you, it would appear that the boogeyman is "major corporations outsourcing jobs."

What you fail to realize thought is that the corporations are only outsourcing jobs because the American consumer has voted with their dollar bills time and again for cheaper goods and services. If you really want to blame someone for our problems, and it would appear that you do, perhaps you should start by taking a good long look in the mirror.

Until then, it may also be smart for you to stay away from the Daily Kos.

Awe, it looks like Lyle found a new friend ;-)

Now if only we could find Schmitzy a new playmate!

@Karen -

Thanks, I appreciate that!

I understood the point that others were trying to make. But my point is why punish the righteous, such as myself, that don't believe in health care insurance except in the case of catastrophic unforeseen situations, by forcing us to buy a product that we don't want under threat of penalty, just to kowtow the system around the lowlifes that don't want to pay their bills? Is that honestly what America has come to - a nation that bends over backwards to suit lowlifes by punishing the righteous? I could only image what our forefathers think of what we've turned this nation into.

Instead of punishing the righteous and taking away our freedoms, why can't they just make the lowlifes pay their bills? Government is so good at eminent domaining private property rights, collecting taxes, etc. But for some reason or another, it can't force people to pay their medical bills? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it!

The people of this nation have become addicted to an entitlement lifestyle, where even the poorest of the poor are somehow entitled to cell phones, satellite tv, ipods, designer cloths, etc. Government handouts have turned this nation into a laughing stock! Kennedy and Johnson were the WORST Presidents ever!

@Eugene -

Instead of public financing of elections, why can't we just hold the bribed politicians accountable for allowing themselves to be bought off by special interests, as the system originally intended us to?

I'm getting sick of this blame the drug dealer while permitting the drug addict to shirk all personal responsibility mentality that has infected our nation! What people like you fail to realize is that demand is more powerful than supply! Pubic financing of elections isn't going to accomplish anything, other than wasting even more taxpayer dollars on a foolish endeavor!

America needs to wake up and start holding politicians accountable. Obama should be impeached for the $.5B in taxpayer funding that his buddies at Solyndra were allowed to steal from us.