Why do you hate the American worker?

Bewildered,

Go easy on them. All their out of state BFFs split town the minute the Darling/Pasch race was called. Their text messages and Twitter DMs are going unanswered. They've been unfriended on Facebook. And they can't understand why.

Why don't you move if you don't like it here ?

Hey "Bucked Up", trotting out the old "Love it or Leave It" attack. It was absurd in the 60s and sure hasn't aged well since. You are entertaining tho. Isn't it almost time to put down COD ( call of duty video shooter game for the hopelessly uncool like me) and come out of your parents' basement. Mom needs to make your bed.

It's almost jingle-like: "Two all beef patties, recall walker shame-shame-shame...."

Steve, I think you should put that on a bumper sticker for the libs to plaster on their crappy cars!

Heavy drug user ?

Give-up on the Walker Recall?? ---Third time's the charm!!!---

Lyle, what is the WRA doing that is exceptionally problematic?

@Jay Sykes...One of the problems we have in this state is land use regulation, especially in terms of protecting certain types of ecological sensitive terrain and the waterways. One of the stated purposes of the WRA is to the elimination of regulations that prevents unlimited land use development. The usual target for the WRA is the Wisconsin DNR. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't actively working in local communities attempting to change local planning commission decisions and community planning regulations. They also exercise control over how the real estate industry functions and has a strangle hold on the MLS, exercising monopolistic control over information access.

I agree on the campaign finance reform. Feingold/McCain was a terrible piece of legislation that has allowed all of these outside interest groups to spend on behalf of candidates. I would like to see all spending come directly from the campaigns. I think the number of outrageous attack advertisements would then be significantly diminishted.

As I have said before, I believe WEAC is the most corrupt union special interest in this state. It will take a few years, but they will start to lose political influence as teachers decide to stop paying union dues, and their insurance company does not have the outrageous profit from overcharging school districts. As WEAC weakens, I think you may start to see the influence of the other groups you mention start to drop off. It will be interesting to see what special interest group develops to try to fill the void of a weakened WEAC.

I could not disagree more.

The republicans are going to spin this as a win but the fact is they lost 2 seats in recalls, some of the most difficult and rare forms of democracy.

Further more the working class of Wisconsin would have retaken the senate if fred Clark wasn't a complete idiot.

He screwed over the whole working class with his "smack her around" comment. Republicans are ok with men threatening and abusing women (Prosser) but thinking men and women, i.e. not republicans, are not ok with that kind of stuff.

These seats the working man took were seats lost in the blue avalanche of 2008. Its was said, "if it didn't go blue [then during the Obama election] then it aint ever gonna go blue" but here we are taking 2 seats back.

And also I think a lot of people who support their local GOP senators because they think that they are good people. Some of them actually were good people. Wisconsin used to be a state where we had clean politics and honest politicians and the issues in Wisconsin were about Wisconsin. Some of these GOP politicians are from that era and their voters remember them as decent people.

NO ONE thinks of Walker as a clean politics guy. Even his cultists supporters would never describe him that way. They like him because he is a "win by any means necessary" "no compromise" "I got mine so screw you" kind of guy.

My point is some people who voted for their local R wont vote for Walker since they see him as a corrupting influence,

Walker's going down , and he knows it.

Bucked, once more a well thought out response backed by in depth analysis. How's that "ugly stick" working out for you ?

Aren't non paying ER ( heavy on the non paying) patients a mainstay of ObamaCare? Isn't that what " shared sacrifices" and " spreading the wealth" all about. Just ask Biden.

"Aren't non paying ER ( heavy on the non paying) patients a mainstay of ObamaCare?"

In a word, Bewildered, no. Have you ever been to the ER as a self-pay? It's pricey.

"I'd say the 8th district was a sweeping mandate, wouldn't you?"

Judging by my fellow posters on the Patch, the 8th is rich white-folks conservative country, so Darling keeping her seat is no surprise. The rest of the state goes about half and half. A few percentage points either way is no sweeping mandate.

I think you mean 'Hopper' instead of 'Dan' in your recount comment...

Has anyone posted the vote totals for the recall candidates alongside the number of recall signatures collected for the candidate? I thought it was interesting that Pasch only got around 4000 more votes than the 30,000 signatures collected to initiate the recall.

The good news there is that Olsens district has, for 150+ years, gone republican.

Even with a complete idiot and jerk running, the working man of Wisconsin came really close to kicking out a guy with unlimited money.

The thing is democratic/indy voters can't overlook the kind of crap Clark did. As soon as I heard that tape of him on that womans answering machine I knew his 4 point lead in the polls was finished. A sensible voter can overlook a crappy driving record but when you have the guy on tape talking about "smacking around" some woman (no matter how rude she was) the thinking voter has to cringe.

The republican cultists voter has no problem voting for men who routinely threaten and display abusive behavior and even physical violence against women (Prosser) but a thinking voter can't,

After these next two democrats keep their seats you are going to see something historic.

Tim Cullen (a DINO for years) and Dale Schultz (the last real republican from my republican party) will declare themselves independents.

They will be major power brokers in the state.

It is Dale Schultz only chance at political survival, otherwise he will be T bagged in a R primary. The other GOP jackals are already waiting to attack him.

Tim Cullen hates his caucus and wants out.

Both were around before Walker turned Wisconsin into a dirty politics freak show and remember what Wisconsin can be.

At least these are my predictions.

Who exactly are these 'working men of Wisconsin' that you keep referring to? Last time I checked, I'm a man, working for a living in Wisconsin. I support what Walker et al are doing...

Tass, didn't do so well with your predictions Tuesday, why would your latest round be any more accurate. By the way, stated Dems objective for recall was take control of senate and roadblock Walker. That simple. Didn't happen. You can put all your spin on, but bottom line, all but the far left fringe fully understand that Dems lost Tuesday. No other way to put it. DNC will never support walker recall now. 2012 race for kohl's seat and presidential race will be top priority. No way outside left financial backers will spend good money after bad. Recall time has passed. Both parties are totally focusing now on 2012 Gerneral election in Nov,'12. Spin away but that's reality on both sides.

@CowDung...The submitted signatures were a lot more, but the GAB threw out nearly 7000 for Darling. The other thing we have to remember is that the signatures were gathered in the Spring when college students were still in the area and people weren't on vacation. Still, all being said; it was a remarkable turnout and no matter the margins the constituency spoke loud and clear.

Thanks for the clarification Lyle--that explains why I thought the numbers to be so much higher.

I wonder how much of a factor the vacation thing really was. I was on vacation and still managed to cast my ballot at the clerk's office before I left...

@CowDung...I don't think the vacation issue was a big deal. Those that cared enough voted absentee. Students were missed. However, the greatest weakness for Pasch was the poor turnout in the NW Milwaukee wards, only 40%. They turned out with much bigger numbers in 2008 when Obama was elected.

While the lack of students may have been a factor, students are notoriously unreliable as a voting bloc.

As far as the low turnouts, I think that the rest of the voters needed some sort of positive message or platform from Pasch to convince them to come out to vote for her. The 'I'm not Darling' strategery just wasn't enough.

I also think that she lost a lot of credibility with her statements accusing Darling of distorting facts while Pasch herself was continually distorting the facts in her press releases and advertisements. I'm thinking that her run might actually hurt her chances for re-election in the Assembly...

Bottom line is Pasch ran a very poor campaign. Her shrill tactics and letting the far left fringe/union supporters run wild with picketing private homes, yelling shame at every occasion and generally trying to bring the Madison style protesst to the 8th turned off many many independents (if not moderate Dems) while solidifying Darling's core base. Union special interests just didn't appeal to the majority of voters. Poor campaign, poor candidate, totally underestimating the "silent majority", letting the far left control the dialogue, and making serious mistakes at the end (not resigning from the left PAC and "rib gate") all doomed the Pasch campaign. It truth, Sheldon would have never run such a misguided campaign and would have had a much better chance. If the Dems don't change their tactics and take back their party from the far left fringe, there is no reason to expect diff results. Of course, as a conservative, I would love to see more drum beating, name calling and marches in Madison. That just plays right into our hands.

Oh yea, anyone else find it ironic that Pasch disappeared with a puff of smoke Tuesday nite, then left town the next morn without so much as a peep? Strange behavior for a standing member of the House. Sounds familiar, like she was following the playbook for the 14 Senators who fled to Il.

Early Tuesday night, when I heard the turnout numbers for the northwest side of Milwaukee, I knew Alberta had the election in the bag. With the high turnout in MF, GTown, Richfield, Mequon, etc, I knew she needed huge numbers out of Milwaukee.

I'm still waiting for Pasch to reply to my e-mails. I think I'm going to have to start collecting signatures for her recall--she's so unresponsive to her constituents...

I think we can handle Sandy's torment.

I'm guessing she was so sure she was going to win that she didn't have a concession speech prepared. It was probably best she didn't try and wing it - it wouldn't have done her any more good that it did Feingold when he gave his rambling dissertation at the time of his defeat.

But there's really no other way to describe her instantaneous disappearance than bizarre. I can just imagine all the comments had Alberta lost and immediately gone into hiding. Sandy's pretty much been given a pass on this.

Did any of you hear Alberta's very strong comments after the election about Pasch? No love lost there!

Lyle says:

@Bewildered...The polarization of both parties is having a devastating effect on the electorate. Those that are more centrist need to take our parties back. Only one problem is that the extremes are being funded by the big money players squeezing out the middle's message.

*********************

The reason this polarization has taken such a prominent position is because the amounts of time candidates spend in the campaign mode has increased dramatically. Having a series of recall elections simply because one side doesn't like the way the other side is addressing issues doesn't help in that regard. If the recall provisions can't be used responsibly as-is, then they need to be changed.

On a national level we've now been in the presidential campaign mode since at least the beginning of this year and this will continue on right up until November of 2012.

It hasn't always been this way.

Frankly, part of the reason there is a need to create this perception of a deep partisan divide is that there really isn't that great a difference between the two parties when it comes down to actually governing. If you pull out all the partisan nonsense, particularly the low-grade personal insults, you'll find that 2 1/2 years into the Obama presidency doesn't look all that much different than the Bush presidency 2 1/2 years before it ended. And while that satisfies neither side, it's suggests that the great partisan divide exists primarily on the surface.

@Bob McBride II

"If the recall provisions can't be used responsibly as-is, then they need to be changed."

That has to be the most fascist thing I have read on this board.

Who are you to decide what is a "responsible" use or not?

Thats a terrible idea but its typical republican. "We will make it so we can decide who gets to use democracy and who doesn't".

Think about things before you post them.

The republicans are going to try and pass changes to the recall laws.

They are going to ram it through and then they are going to make it law even though it contradicts the state constitution. Then the bought supreme court will say its ok.

Just watch.

If you threw the right wing fringe out of the republican party you would have like 6 guys.

Classic Ed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjTikzgBhl8

You'd be better off with a Kloppenberg

Bucked, you sure you're not Rick R's brother, another long lost child of Lyle's misguided youth in Ca? ( just kidding Lyle. Luv ya)

@Bewildered...I did get around, but I can't claim paternity for all the low life around now. I hit all four coasts including Woodstock but most was work. I'll repeat the mantra of my youth: "Sex, Drugs and Rock N Roll"! I did own a 1962 Volkswagen van painted in psychedelic colors, flowers and peace signs. I spent more time fixing it than driving it. For a sideline business I sold water bed mattresses, home made candles and incense. That's also when I started carrying a Man Bag and haven't given it up yet. Just higher quality, now its leather instead of burlap. I also had to trade in my rose colored glasses for bifocals. Life's a bitch and then you die!

60 is the new 30

Bucky's obsessed with Alberta's picture. He's spending just a little TOO much time complaining about it. I'll bet he saved a copy to his hard drive.

Just don't get sticky fingers on the monitor

"In the 8th a totally disgusting campaign, lies, innuendos, doctored or inappropriate feature photos and too many $$ for too long a campaign. "

I couldn't agree more.

When the republicans ran those fake democrats in the primaries they condemned us all to an extra 6 weeks of lies and garbage and propaganda from out of state special interests.

To be fair, the Dems ran fake Repub candidates in 2010. Not a new tactic and one used by both parties in the past

I would vote for that plan. Most folks I know that still have their jobs have taken dramatic pay cuts, unpaid furloughs or are doing the work of several people to keep their companies afloat.
I would support an effort by a legislator of any persuasion to "put our money where our mouth is" regarding their pay and benefits packages.

My state representative (the only one who bothered to reply to my emails) told me that the BRB changes in pension and health benefits, which amounts to about an 8% cut in take-home pay, affected his family as well. I'm not sure whether that meant his salary or his spouse's, but it's a sign.

Good point about Washington -- I agree with you. Many of them don't have a clue about what sort of hardship their proposed changes to Social Security and Medicare would cause the average retiree.

"I'd like to see Rep. and Dem. stand side by side and demand all elected officials in the State take a 10% pay cut."

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of money and politics.

Its not about how much you make as a salary while you are in office. Its about the bribes you get.

You see every politician has "lobbyists" (euphemism for bribe man or call girl) who tell them to pass certain bills. In the case of ALEC and the Wisconsin republicans they are given the bills already written and all they have to do is be good little puppets and pass them.

There are all kinds of ways that these bribes can be made to look legit. In the case of Clarence Thomas the supreme court justice his wife is given about 2 million dollars every year by right wing extremist groups. He also speaks at various fund raisers for these extremist groups. In exchange for these millions of dollars he votes how he is told.

Thats just one example.

But just watch what becomes of Hopper and Kapanke.

For their kamikaze attack on the working people of Wisconsin they will be given millions of dollars in bribes. They may become "consultants" or get "speaking fees" or work as "lobbyists" but it all boils down to corruption and bribery.

The only thing a pay cut for legislators would do is make it harder for honest men like Mark MIller (who already has a second job driving taxi) to exist in politics. Fat cats like these republicans would never miss it.

@morninmist...By all estimates the change will result in pulling out $300 million out of the economy over the next two years. Funny how the state government is projecting a $300 million surplus. Tells me that this action wasn't needed. How do you think it feels to all the families who are sacrificing $4,000/year just so the state will have a surplus?

Where did that $300 million that is supposedly being pulled out of the economy actually go? I doubt that the money just disappeared from the economy...

@morninmist -- I know what a hit an 8% pay cut is, and I've been saying that on the patch until I'm about to turn blue.

If in fact the $300mm more money being paid due to increased union benifits contributions is correct, doesn't that decrease the tax burden of all taxpayers ( public and private) by the same amount? Won't municipal and school budgets reflect the increased union contributes as a decrease in overall budget expenditures, thus lowering the need to offset by taxes. While an increased burden to union members, to me it's a plus to general public ( including union members who will see zero tax increase like everyone else). Seems like a wash.

@Bewildered...I believe the $300 mm is state surplus and not counting local.

Actually, I was referring to local unions with contracts with school boards or municipal boards ( ie: village DPW). They are the ones who pay union salaries and benefits, and thus, benefit from the increased contribution savings, hope fully passing onto local taxpayers.

The 8% reduction in pay, on an after tax basis, works out to be about a 5.5% pay reduction;tax law provides for pension and healthcare premium contributions to be funded with pre-tax dollars.

@Lyle - anything to stop WEAC WAS needed. Maybe some other people sufferred in the process, but WEAC needed to be reigned in.

If the state uses it to pay down debt, then that will save us money in the long run. Will they do that, though?

The jury is still out on that one. The Walker budget has left the income taxes at the same rate for most of us, decreased state aid to localities, and frozen the tax levies. We shall see if the localities respond by raising assessments, cutting services like garbage pickup, or instituting user fees.

I'm also interested to see how these new jobs translate into increased income and sales tax revenues, because that's where part of the problem lay.

@Jim K...I think it is too early to claim that Walker and Darling are the Wisconsin taxpayer's best friends. In my estimation, the only way to keep from having taxes go up is, given that not enough jobs will be created to increase revenues, to begin privatizing non-essential government services and to cut essential service levels. At what point is it important to raise taxes and increase revenues.

Yeah see the thing is that by cutting services and state aid to schools they are just transferring the burden to municipalities.

Everyone likes to whine about taxes but no one is willing to give up living in a decent society. Look around and decide what you can live without.

The easy answer for most people is that they weren't willing to give anything up so they instead took it out of the workers hides. Thing is there is only so much you can take from those people.

At some point these cuts are going to affect the "tax payer",

I pay more taxes than most but I would never consider myself a "tax payer" as I have heard the term used nowadays. "Tax payer" seems to be a the new code word for angry person who wants everything for free and doesn't want to pay for existing in society and wants to make "cuts" but only to other people.

Tass, I would rather have individual school and municipal boards making their own decisions how to manage their budgets now that the BRB is in place. I believe that was a main point of bill #10 (BRB) was to push decisions back to local level after giving them ability to make real changes ( ie: ability to negotiate Heath insurance with out union veto)

Lyle, in answer to your question," at what point...raise taxes", as a conservative, I would say when the economy turns around, jobs are created and spending is brought under control. Till then, any discussion of higher taxes would be a non starter. Until people in Wi (at least those who support walker, and right now thats the majority) have some discretionary money, they will not be willing to pay more in taxes. We believe there is a spending problem, not a revenue issue. and we hate more debt .

Tass, you state that "we can only take so much from those people"? What Act 10 took away from "those" people was a free ride on insurance and pension - the money is still used for their own personal benefit, no one elses. The other thing Act 10 did was expose the teachers union as a complete rip off of the public - without the changes in collective bargining, WEAC's insurance company would still be over charging premiums to the tune of 30-40%. What services have been cut? The only school districts laying off teachers are the ones who were dumb enough to enter into new contracts before Act 10 took effect. And what was the teachers response to the firing of 200 of their own in MKE? Tough luck, sorry but it really sucks to be you.

I find your last statement very ironic since all of the protesting we have seen in Madison is because the public sector employees want their benefits to continue at the same level without paying for them - they are like the person who never picks up the check at dinner but orders the most expensvie item on the menu. Sorry, welcome to the era of the dutch treat - you buy yours, I'll buy mine. What is unfair about that?

@Pudge -- The public employees had negotiated more generous benefits in return for lower take-home pay. This was to the benefit of both employers and employee. Now the agreement has been breached and the pay rate held at the same level (they can't collectively bargain for raises above the level of inflation) while taking the new employee contribution out of the pay. They're taking anywhere from a 5% to a 13% cut.