@Bucky,

Yeah, me too! Almost as much as I loved it when Your Dear Leader introduced Plugs Biden as the Next President in 2008! Suck this, you ignorant liberal victim.

http://youtu.be/RElChQ6g2Io

@Donald
Obama himself caught the mistake, while Mitt had to come back on stage after he left to correct his boo boo.

@ --- ... You must be talking to your mother.

Why?

Really Bren? This is how shallow you are. All your smug academic drivel and you come here and fart out something about hair product?

Yup! ; )

This is the kind of comment that Bren usually slaps me around for, but I thought it was funny. It was harmless humor, which I consider fair play.

But I haven't made an offensive comment about people with developmental disabilities have I, Greg? So not the same type of comment. And I have no problem if they share hair product whatsoever, it's the 1950s after all. ; )

I never "made an offensive comment about people with developmental disabilities", you took my use of a single word and twisted it into that. Thennnnnnnnnnn you went on to babble some crap about me only posting the type of comment, that you posted above. Good hair should really be taken seriously.

Unless you consider not knowing the difference between a billionaire and a millionaire a "developmental disability", then I just pointed it out.

Greg I note you've stepped up your game considerably and well done! I do take good hair seriously and slathering gel is a great mid 20th century look.

Amen brother.

Is that a wild assed guess Jimmy? Because Ryan has not executive experience.

What is not a guess is that Ryan's Roadmap to Hell is the same disaster Bush led up to 2008. What makes you think this any different? After all, Ryan voted for everything Bush offered up.

@Schmitzy -

Neither Obama or Biden had any executive level experience prior to 2009.

Romney has executive level experience in both the private and public sectors, in addition to saving the SLC Winter Olympic games! That's a zillion fold the qualifications and experience that Obama/Biden had in 2008!

Ryan has admitted that the Bush years were a personal disappointment for him and his party. And no, it's not the same.

Bush didn't veto a single spending bill. Romney/Ryan are committed to shrinking federal spending. Bush expanded the federal government with crap like No Child Left Behind. Romney/Ryan call for the consolidation and/or elimination of redundant federal agencies. Bush was big on subsidies to the private sector. Romney/Ryan are committed to getting the government out of the business of picking private sector winners and losers.

In many ways, it's the kind of hope and change that Obama promised in 2008, but failed to deliver on - in fact, Obama's actions were a complete 180 from what he was promising!

It's very different Schmitzy. It's real fiscal conservatism. It's real personal responsibility. It will save this country from bankruptcy and our children from a mountain load of debt.

ROMNEY / RYAN 2012!!!

James,
Would you please state the facts you spout with links to real DATA.
The rumors you espouse are just that, rumors. Where are the FACTS man????

Jimmy,
What is Romney & Ryan's plan to pay off the debt for the two (2) GOP wars started by Cheney & Bush II????
- You must be aware that the cost of the two (2) wars were not in any of their eight (8) budgets. <> The two wars were fought using 'ONLY' borrowed off shore money.
Those are facts, not empty hollow rumors Jimmy boy. <<>>

Whoops Jimmy I forgot more facts.
At the same time Cheney & Bush II, backed by Ryan, where spending borrowed war money, they were lowering tax rates. Thus the vast increases in the national debt in their eight (8) years and continuing today because the funding has still not been budgeted. This problem continues today and will long into the future, because of the 100's of million dollars cost of long term medical care necessary for 10's of thousands injured troops, and rebuilding what America destroyed. Jimmy, this is like a multi headed, 100 foot long snake wriggling through every American's wallets chomping money. <<>>

"Ryan stands with the people." Egads, the ones who don't need Medicare and Social Security? Those people?

Who Ryan? He is paid less than some of our educators.

What an idiot.

Who Kief???

Only to the low information, non-thinking types - you really do have a low opinion of your fellow Americans, don't you Dirk?

What a laugh you are hoffa!!-

The only low information folks are the Faux so-callled news viewers--also know as teabaggers.

...............
James R Hoffa

4:25 pm on Saturday, August 11, 2012

Only to the low information, non-thinking types - you really do have a low opinion of your fellow Americans, don't you Dirk?

@morninmist -

It's facts vs bs - watch Ryan teach Obama the truth about Obamacare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxMZ1WdINs

Hoffa - You would know the most about "the low information, non-thinking types", they are your people. But it seems there will be a whole lot of people saying "keep the government out of my Social Security and Medicare!" Seems like the Republicans are already in damage control about Ryan, and there are months ahead.

@Dirk -

"keep the government out of my Social Security and Medicare!"

That statement makes no sense what-so-ever! This may come as a shock to you, as apparently you're lower-information and non-thinking than I first thought, but SS and Medicare are federal government programs. They are funded by compulsory taxation.

Essentially, the programs were set-up because left-wing politicians believed that a majority of the people were/are stupid and don't trust the people to manage their own money wisely. So instead, the government treats you like an irresponsible little child, taking part of your money and setting it aside for you to use later in life. The government then dictates when you can start accessing that money, how much of the money you can access at a time, and how often you can access the money.

That's pathetic Dirk - we don't need the government to treat us like little babies! Give us the option of opting out and managing our own money! If we lose it all, oh well, that's our own damn faults - at least we have no one to blame but ourselves!

In the words of J.G. Wentworth - It's your money - use it when you want to!

But no - people like you feel that we need big daddy government to spank us and take care of our money for us because we're all too stupid and Washington politicians are so much smarter and trustworthy!

Not only does your position scare me Dirk, but it's personally insultive to anyone with a brain who actually uses it!

@Hoffa:
"So instead, the government treats you like an irresponsible little child, taking part of your money and setting it aside for you to use later in life."
Not true (but U know that). The gov takes your money today, and spends it today as well. They promise you will get it tomorrow. There is no set-aside. That is what the national argument is all about. Thank Heaven Paul will direct that conversation.

@Gearhead -

It's actually worse than that!

The SS fund invests in US Treasuries. As the federal government's sole source of revenue is tax collection, the taxpayers are essentially also paying for the interest that SS fund investments earn. So in all reality, the SS fund investments don't earn any money at all - they just end up costing you even more in different taxes! Thus taxpayers are actually paying in a lot more than they realize for their SS benefits - it's not just the FICA taxes that are paying for those benefits!

Hoffa - Obviously, I know SS and Medicare are federal programs. You grasp at a humorous tongue-in-cheek statement and pretend to believe it is sincere and jump at the chance to demean. Or worse, you don't get the obvious humor. Winning a lot of votes for your side that way, are you? You really are sounding desperate, and well you should be with the Republican Presidential ticket.
As to opting out on SS and Medicare, there would need to be a lot of rules so someone could not opt out, then later need the safety net system like Medicaid, food stamps, etc. because they did not get an SS payment and things did not turn out in life and their investments as they had hoped. That would be a fairly common occurrence. What do you propose for these optimistic good people that life treats so badly? Out on the street? It seems we would also have a bunch of people intentionally gaming the system by opting out of not paying SS and Medicare, and using the money for immediate gratifications, then later also needing life's basics later with no resources to pay for them.

Call me heartless, but I do not want to contribute to SS and Medicare and then end up paying taxes to support those who opted out and were too naive to understand how life can give you unanticipated setbacks, or were gamers. And I do not want to let these people starve and live under bridges. Your ideas sound good to the low information people, and the rich, but you leave out reality.

@Dirk -

You obviously missed the part wherein Hoffa clearly stated:

"Give us the option of opting out and managing our own money! If we lose it all, oh well, that's our own damn faults - at least we have no one to blame but ourselves!"

In other words, if you opt out - you're on your own, period. That's the thing about choices - they come with consequences. Some positive, some negative. True freedom is about being able to exercise those choices and having to live with the resultant consequences.

But keep in mind that those opting out would also receive a reduced income tax rate, because part of that tax goes to pay for the investment income that the SS fund earns by investing in US Treasuries.

So instead of treating adults like adults, you prefer the government to restrict our freedoms and treat us all like babies just because you couldn't personally bear to see others suffering the negative consequences of their own decisions and actions. Well, if you really felt bad for such people and wanted to help them, the government wouldn't stop you from setting up a private charitable tax-exempt organization to do so, would they? So that takes care of that concern, doesn't it. And you and others can give as much money as you like and you won't be infringing on my freedoms or adulthood - it's a win-win for everyone!

BTW - The alleged humor in your post was definitely not apparent! To the contrary, your comment appeared to be quite serious.

Morninmist - still having giggles with teabagger? No adult conversation with Morni...

Hoffa - "if you opt out [of SS and Medicare] - you're on your own, period". This is the crux of the Tea Party philosophy. In other words, we should be stepping over diseased and starving people who opted out, and hope charity will take care of them. I visualize Calcutta or the worst of the Depression, with all those formerly optimistic beggars in business suits, standing in soup lines. It is called "Social Darwinism", which I find ironic, because most Tea Party types do not believe in Darwin's theories. In short, only the mean and sociopathic survive. Now I am getting the image of Somalia.
Most people do not want to invest in the stock market or real estate these days for their total future retirement security. They want a rock solid guarantee that they will at least get a safety net. Like it or not, the U.S. Government is still the closest to being able to fill that role.

@Dirk -

Your assumption of doom and gloom if we allow people to opt out is premised upon what exactly? My grandfather was alive during the 1920's and '30's, before those programs were forced upon the people, and he doesn't recall "stepping over diseased and starving people" in the streets.

"Only the mean and sociopathic survive." If that's true, then I guess that we can all trace our roots back to some pretty mean and sociopathic people, right? You really do have a low opinion of your/our ancestors, don't you?

Are people not free to invest in Treasuries themselves? Or annuities? Or insurance? Or bonds? Or a multitude of other investments that are not within the province of Wall Street?

Nope, Dirk says that government is preferable to freedom of choice, so we must all play by Dirk's rules.

How do you feel about the government running up over $30T in public debt? Between our federal, state, and local level governments public debt offerings and unfunded liabilities, our political leaders have put right around $30T on the public credit card. That reduces to a burden of $262,300 per taxpayer. Every child owes this amount before they are even born all thanks to your wonderful big government. What happens to everyone when the system collapses due to unsustainability? How humane is any of this? Your alleged good intentions today are enslaving the future to our debt. It has to stop!

Hoffa - Sorry, just do not have your strange visionary skills to see a wonderful world with no safety nets. Civilization apparently does not fit you. You have not helped us visualize the positive aspects of your future vision for America, except everyone carrying a gun and being highly competitive without a lot of rules, or protections for all the rest of us. Darwinism: The best animal wins. .

Alias Rees,
What is terrible about it? Take your best shot. I'll wait.

@Rees -

Apparently you didn't take my advice and you completely missed my point. You CANNOT trust any third party summaries or analysis. Read the actual primary documents for yourself, think for yourself, analyze for yourself, and come to your own independent conclusion!

Here are the links:

Path to Prosperity:
http://budget.house.gov/uploadedfiles/pathtoprosperity2013.pdf

The Budget Bill H.CON.RES.34:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hconres34pcs/pdf/BILLS-112hconres34pcs.pdf

Hoffa - You don't set the rules here. And you need to follow your own rules. Sincere contributors should not be shouted down. Your opinions are not a primary document, by any means, why should we read them then? Even in the courtroom, secondary sources have weight, and restatements of the law are useful with proper attribution. We all know wikipedia is useful, but not totally accurate. It is pompous to suggest everyone fully read the black and white text of every bill before they can make a comment on a public blog. What do you want, Patch all to yourself so you can be like Rush?

@Dirk -

While summaries are fine, in this day in age, and especially when relating to political topics, they simply cannot be trusted at face value to be complete, accurate, and bias free - you know this to be true.

Is it really too much to ask people to read the actual primary documents for themselves, think for themselves, analyze for themselves, and come to their own independent conclusion???

If so, then perhaps our country is in a lot worse shape and in deeper trouble than Hoffa originally thought!

There's the mindless 4 trillion in spending cuts for starters, then throw on the needless refusal to cut military spending, plus the refusal to raise taxes. http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2012/08/ryans-budget-the-most-fraudulent-proposal-in-american-history.html

This is a thinly veiled gift to the affluent. Hope the media has the courage to point that out, but they won't, so don't worry conservatives, you're fine.

@Schmitzy -

Cuttuing $4T where? Can you cite the page numbers and paragraphs for each proposed cut in the Path to Prosperity and/or the statute numbers in the budget bill where people can find this information?

Same applies for the tax plan, and military spending. Also, what is the explanation that Ryan give as to why he made the choices he did?

Don't worry, I won't be holding my breath, as Hoffa knows that you NEVER really read the Path or the budget bill for yourself - you're merely relying upon a biased third party analysis and taking it all as gospel, as the link you provided clearly indicates.

Wake up Schmitzy - start thinking for yourself instead of constantly relying upon others to do it for you!

@Rees -

Is it really too much to ask people to read the actual primary documents for themselves, think for themselves, analyze for themselves, and come to their own independent conclusion???

If so, then perhaps our country is in a lot worse shape and in deeper trouble than Hoffa originally thought!

Hoffa would have expected such a response from others, but you???

Hoffa is starting to get really worried about the future of this country.

Patch should just call this the Hoffa Show. Just another Rash Gumball.

@Bucky -

Enjoy the show ;-)

@ Bucky
Hoffa's ego is on a roll once again.

@morninmist -

It's a curse being the smartest person in the room ;-)

If anyone is in any doubt that Mr. Hoffa's the smartest person in the room, just ask him! ; )

Reply to Bren re Hoffa's intelligence.
Your correct Bren.
Hoffa can make up more unfounded facts faster than we can present actual/real facts.
Now that's real intelligence. You think!!!!
Whoops! made a mistake again writing the words - think, facts, intelligence and James Hoffa in the same message. <<>>

@Rees -

Hoffa is genuinely sorry. Hoffa didn't mean to be abrasive - just direct, cutting through the crap and formalities. Perhaps that's one of the detriments of communicating in written form on the internet - it sometimes lacks the proper conveyance of tone, personality, and character.

Hoffa agrees with your assessment, but honestly - what is so difficult about reading, thinking, analyzing, and concluding for yourself? While summaries are fine, in this day in age, and especially when relating to political topics, they simply cannot be trusted at face value to be complete, accurate, and bias free - you know this to be true.

@ Hoffa. Rees won't read the doc because then he would have to confront the truth. The truth flies in the face of his preconceived notion the Ryan plan is bad, and He never offers evidence of it. Instead he argues over the process of Patch posting and accuses you of being abrasive. I guess that a lawyer arguing fact and logic can be seen by others as abrasive - especially when they are losing the argument!

@Gearhead -

Hoffa just doesn't get it. All he does is asks a person to think for themselves and it turns into Hoffa being the bad guy.

Oh well, can't say that Hoffa didn't try!

Mr. Hoffa, you have to admit you have the gift of universalism. ; )

Wow! If you represent the Democratic party; no wonder you are called sheep with a post like that!

@Dirk -

Maybe if you read the primary documents, you'd see that it's not the doom and gloom and wish list for the uber-rich that your biased preconceived assumptions claim it to be. But hey, why engage in actual thinking when you can have Obama, Pelosi, Maddow, and Schultz do all the leg work for you - cause they're going to give you the whole and complete story without any bias, right?

So, now you're saying that we need to fully trust our politicians, media, and others to be straight with us just so that we don't have to think for ourselves?!?!

That's quite simply incredible!

Hoffa criticizes anyone who is capable but too damned lazy to actually think for themselves - no matter what their political ideology may be!

Again, if you represent a consensus of where the mentality of this country is going, then it really is much worse than Hoffa originally thought! You're really starting to scare Hoffa because for some strange reason, you're not scared of and instead actually believe most of the crap that you post here.

For the sake of our great nation, Hoffa hopes and prays that you represent a minority!

Dirk, are you suggesting that when Obama was trying to pass his health care bill that I could have increased my knowledge of it by listening to someone like Pelosi. I think I'm starting to understand, not the bill. This is scary stuff.

Maybe people have better things to do then read a loser bill. Kind of like reading Hoffa's theoretical and lengthy tax proposals. You know who is going to profit by Ryan's bill, and its not the middle and working class,. Maybe people without real jobs like Hoffa and as a political junkie and wonk can read all the bills, which I doubt. And ron mastropietro, I obviouslly never said to listen to Pelosi, or just listen to Pelosi. You cannot carry on a decent argument if you do not read my comments for content and reply logically.

I actually tune in Rush on occasion, until my wife gets too upset because he is so obnoxious, and have only heard Schultz a couple times while traveling, and nothing better was on the radio. Listen to both sides. That's America. And there are a lot smarter people out there than us that can add to the analysis on both sides.

Spoon fed by the union news letter. It is reflected in your posts.

Dirk, So let me get this straight we are to listen to commentators that put their own ideology on information that they got from congress on specific bills that they didn't read. So why not simplify things instead of looking at everything through a microscope let's take a few steps back and look at the bigger picture. Let's take one trillion dollars for the Iraq war and put that on Bush this will increase his total spending to 4.9 T for 8 years. Our debt was 10T when obama took over now 16T in half the time, with 80T in unfunded liabilities for 20 years. Do you think it's possible that we're facing a problem that the greatest nation that ever existed won't be able to handle? Read the book AFTERSHOCK I'm not saying this is going to happen, but i'll say I don't want him to be half right.

Dirk, I did hold my nose and plow through the entire screed. It's tall on whining and assertions, short on practica (strategy and tactics). If a staffer handed me that it would be handed right back. And that's if I even accepted the notion that the focus "now" must be on reducing the Bush deficit instead of keeping people fed and getting the economy going.

@MustangSally -

I hear that!

MustangSally, if helpful, my Goldwater Republican father probably won't vote this election because he is that concerned about Paul Ryan's "budget" plan and fixation with atheist adulteress Ayn Rand. Some Christians find that a bit weird.

Just like a Democrat - calling for the continued perpetuation of LIES!

The Tax Policy Center analysis does not factor in Romney/Ryan's cuts to the federal budget and engages in a lot of speculation and assumptions concerning deductions and exemptions, doesn't it?

BTW - A similar analysis of Obamacare found that it would cost the country over 800,000 jobs.

And where's the analysis of Obama's tax plan? Yeah, that's what I thought!

A friend attended one of Paul Ryan's town hall meetings and said all he could do is burble talking points. Generally Biden's pretty good at fielding questions. We'll see.

"They're going to put y'all back in chains", no burble there...

So the only solution was a "Universal Healthcare system"?
I think some basic reforms, to the existing health care system, would have done the same things. There are flaws and gaps in the ACA, don't kid yourself.

This aspect of the ACA has been of tremendous assistance to some of my relatives. Others with pre-existing conditions have also benefited. I perceive ACA as a precursor to what we should have, a proper national healthcare plan that (eventually) phases out the middleman (insurers) that drives up so much of the cost.