@Taoist
It is you building the premise of humans not being humans until some arbitrary point in time determined by the mothers desire to love the child, that is the propaganda.

Based on the premise that life can be subjective is also the basis for the propaganda that Republicans are building a theocracy.

Because you have taken exceptional steps to rationalize your desire to kill children simply because they are in utero, does not mean you get impose your beliefs on the rest of country. In order for your beliefs to win (since you can't argue based on fact), you use emotion baiting to claim that after the GOP take over, hordes of raped women will be birthing babies until the Democratic president can lie his way into office.

Take your lies elsewhere.

Wow! What lies?

JB, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right, and a zygote is a fully-fledged person, with all of the same rights as a newborn baby.

Now that that's out of the way, how about you try to shed some light on how the GOP proposes to punish raped women who take the morning-after pill? Prison or execution?

This is a real issue; you can't just wish it away by calling it propaganda.

And Willard does not use telepromters? Why just the other day Willards handlers were crying how Willard is not a birther, and how he was not using his telepromter for that partcular speech when he said that no one asked him to show his birthcertificate. Of course, Willard was correct. He has however been asked to show his tax returns - why is he avoiding coming clean with the American voter? Had Willard applied for and was granted amensty for his non-reporting of overseas accounts as required by law, and is thus a forgiven felon?

George W. Bush was the teleprompter president. It's not a criticism. Public speaking is hard. Imagine knowing your words will be heard around the world. To avoid making unclear remarks I would want a written, vetted speech in front of me and a teleprompter too.

@Taoist
Your continued loyalty to building my thread count is all the admiration I need.

Well, then I won't feel bad at all about pinning you down on the whole "GOP wanting to to put rape victims in jail" issue.

Oh, well I went to private schools my whole life, because I'm rich as hell. Any other theories?

Hey Abe, lets talk some more about your really smart notion of how, once the morning after pill is illegal, it will no longer exist, so we don't have to think about what happens when a rape victim gets caught taking one.

It's amazing how good our government is at making things illegal, isn't it? That's why there's no crime, nobody drives over the speed limit, it's impossible to get recreational drugs, and nobody ever gets raped.

@Brian
I acknowledged in my piece that elections are always full of half truths and propaganda. However, it is the Democrats that using pure propaganda as their platform. For example, they are dedicating an entire day at the convention for the fabled 'war on women'. Do you see the Republicans dedicating a day to 'Obama the Socialist' or 'He's turning us into Europe'? Nope. There is a difference between using propaganda to rally your base vs using propaganda to deceive the nation and demonize the opposition as being responsible for all societal ills.

AWD.... Naw.... I am not going there.

The culture runs on fear.... It doesn't escape politicians that to rally troops you need an evil foe. This is an archetypal story that appeals to our psyches and even very intelligent folk often don't see through this gambit. So maybe Obama is going to ruin the whole nation, maybe Mitt and his one percent pals will screw us all. Don't dont fall for it is my thought. Look for reason wherever it comes from...for truth from whatever source. Don't be driven by fear. Terrorists use this method so effectively. I think most of it is a smoke screen to keep us little folks busy while the big boys haul in the cash....

My issue with right to lifers is that so many simultaneously support war, huge military spending....dollars spent to kill millions of people. I don't get that one.

Though like most here, Luke, I had not been born nor conceived while Hitler was fighting in Europe, I am certain my soul was floating around somewhere awaiting my predetermined birth, and I distinctly remember that it was not in favor of him ruling Europe. It was probably my etheral will that turned the tide of the war, which would not have happened if I had been destined for abortion decades later.

Unfortunately these new wars just don't seem to have that "fate of the world" justification, do they? Why did we see a huge economic boom from WWII but nothing but an economic collapse and multi-trillion-dollar debts from our latest wars? Could it be because the wars are more about lining the pockets a few key players than about coming together as a nation to do what we must?

Oh, yeah, we had prohibition of abortions before. How does prohibition work out in practice again? They can try but what difference will it make? If you really believe that abortion is very disrespectful and hurtful towards life then you need to convince other people and sway their hearts, not just write a law that says so.

Why are you so obsessed with rape?

Because rape is non-consensual sex. A personhood amendment would outlaw the means of preventing a conception in a case of rape and it would outlaw an abortion. Logically, it would outlaw abortion even to save the life of a mother, giving equal status to embryonic and fetal 'persons'

Sally, rape victims' rights are an important issue for me because I have a daughter, and a loved one who was raped. Are you living in some fantasy world where rape doesn't happen? Because in reality, where I live, one in five women experience rape or attempted rape in their lifetimes.

A quick survey of 5 women: none have been raped but two very near misses (timely intervention by strangers. One was attacked in an amusement park funhouse; one, age 13, was being forcibly pushed into a car by a group of men that had grabbed her on a public sidewalk in the middle of the afternoon). All 5 have been grabbed/groped while in public places, lines, subway, movie theater etc. Four have had repeated experiences with "flashers," one at the age of 12 (events occurred on public streets, stores, etc. All 5 have had multiple experiences of unwanted attention where disinterest has been met with intimidating behavior/verbal abuse, arm grabbing, etc. This also includes experiences with clients during and after work). Not easy being a female. Just walking the street on a lunchtime errand can be a difficult/dangerous experience. All 5 have had issues with men aggressively following them in their cars or on foot to the point where they have had to enter a store or restaurant to avoid harassment.

None of them asked/ask for this. The 13-year old was wearing bermuda shorts the day of the near-attack. She was told that she provoked the attack by wearing shorts. Now in her mid 50s, she's never worn shorts because they bring back the memories of that day. The woman attacked in the fun house, now adult, will not visit carnivals.

No, JMB -- you should 'educate' us on this procedure, when it is legal and when it is not, and on the circumstances under which it is performed.

Wait...

So, a zygote is a person, but it's not illegal to kill it? It's only illegal to provide the means of killing it? JB, that's not how "personhood" amendments work. Outlawing all forms of abortion, and several forms of birth control, is precisely the point.

And really - what's the point of not including an exception for rape, if you're not really going to punish rape victims who take the morning after pill? Why force them to get it on the black market, where they might wind up getting a spoiled, adulterated, or mislabeled product, making it more dangerous for them? Just because you think they somehow deserve additional threats to their health, because they were raped?

Again, if you don't want to open the door to all of these unintended negative consequences for women, then why not temper your rigid ideological stance with some basic human decency and compassion for rape victims?

I'd even give you the respect that you refuse to give me, and actually answer your question, if I could figure out what you meant by liberal men being "willing to defend abortive procedures more vigorously then (sic) they are willing to defend women from abusive politicians? Please clarify that.

Oh, and finally - your point that I want men to be able to use women for sex is a red herring, and it's disgusting.

I'm the one saying that women should have control over their own bodies, you're the one saying that the government should force rape victims should be slaves to their rapist. You're the one saying that there should be no exception for rape, so a rape victim has no way of reclaiming the course of her own life until after she's been through 9 months of the most personal, life-changing, and in her case, rape-based experience that a woman can have. You, and the GOP, are the ones saying "look honey, that rape wasn't so bad. Your pregnancy was a gift from got, so just sit back and enjoy the ride. Oh, and by the way, there's probably a guy you can get a pill from in a back alley somewhere, but it's at your own risk! After all, you need to accept some responsibility for being raped - we can't just have you getting off the hook just because some man overpowered you, violated you, and left you alone to wrangle with your theocratic government for your basic human rights. Those problems are all yours, baby."

Really, it's so simple - just start from a position of allowing an exception for rape. If you refuse to do that, then you're staking out an extreme position with all kinds of collateral effects on women, just because you don't want to lose any ground in an ideological war. It's childish, un-American, and anti-woman.

@Taoist
It appears that you are unwilling to to allow a pro-life individual to hold their beliefs and would rather impose your own on the country. As for 'red herrings', what is more a red herring than the whole black market scenario. By that token, why do we have laws that prohibit anything illegal? Can't you theoretically create a black market for anything?

I am unwilling to investigate women who have possibly had an abortion and I would not support an amendment that did so.

Rape, incest and medical need accounts for less then 10% of total yearly abortions. Assuming we grant amnesty for those 10% of mothers, the remaining 90% are using abortion rather proper preventative measures. Within that 90%, isn't 50% of every pregnancy the responsibility of the man. You, as a man, fighting for abortion, are attempting to remove your responsibility for preventative measures? Placing the full burden on what you like to call women's 'choice'. A man no longer needs to be responsible during consensual sex. This ability to have a laissez-faire attitude toward a sexual relation demeans women by turning them into nothing more then toys. Sure, thanks to you women have a the 'choice' to use the pill or have an abortion; however, by granting men a free pass you remove the ability of women to have equal choice in a sexual encounter. Your 'choice' is a prison for women as now they must bear the full brunt of sexual responsibility.

Now hold on just a second, J.B. No one is forcing you to either use birth control or have an abortion under the current laws. You want to pass and amendment that would seriously limit access to those things for people who don't have your restrictive views. So who is trying to impose personal views on whom?

You can believe all you like, but you cannot deny me the freedom of my own conscience.

As for men being responsible during consensual sex, give men a pill or other easily reversible method that isn't intrusive and subject to breakage -- something like the pill that is in place all the time -- and I'm sure it will be used. So far it's just condoms and vasectomies, and both of those have their drawbacks.

@Bren
Yes, 16% were deemed fake. Compared to 70% by Obama. It is easy to see who is more likely to be using it as a propaganda tool.

I dismissed this information because it's highly unlikely that Romney or Obama ordered this; probably overzealous campaign workers or interns.

Why is the death rate of military troops averaging one per day from suicide? Why are so many returning with mental health problems and high rates of post tramatic stress disorder?

************************

I take it you don't remember when troops were returning from Vietnam? The horrors of war are enough to explain both.

So a rape -- forced sexual intercourse and impregnation -- is the only situation where an adult human woman loses the right to bodily autonomy? Neither science nor religion can agree on when 'human' life -- that is the aspect of when a member of our species develops the unique 'human' attribute that makes us deserving of protection as opposed to all other species -- begins. Granting human status to something with four cells and no cortical activity (no cortex even) relies on the beliefs of a religious minority.

Let me ask why you accept abortion in cases of incest? Almost all incest is rape of some form, but a few cases are consensual.

@sally -- read carefully -- 'Religion' is not a minority. Most religions consider abortion to be a sin. However, not all of them consider it to be murder, since they do not agree on when 'human' life begins. This was stated in the Roe v. Wade decision. Whether those that consider conception to be the beginning of human life are in the minority or not is beside the point. One religion's dogma must not be imposed on everyone else. You are free to refrain from using birth control and from getting an abortion if that's your belief. You (and the state) can't make that decision for someone whose religion or moral code differs.

I'm not out of touch. I remember the day Roe was announced. I remember how life was before that day. So, just for grins, your estimate of my age is way off.

So when does this non-life become life ... The egg and sperm are alive, the DNA is always there. I think "human life" begins when the kid can feed himself so lets say we get till 4 years old before we don't get to abort, sounds reasonable to me .. I mean there is NO God, no punishment for evil .. so if it feels good do it

"Most religions" is a bit of an exaggeration. I will direct you to the pertinent paragraph from the Roe v. Wade decision:

"We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer. [410 U.S. 113, 160]"
http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/gov/bl_roe_f.htm

In the following paragraph lists the differences of opinion on this matter throughout history -- even among the Catholic church. It is something you should read before insisting that yours is the majority opinion -- or binding on everyone else.

I am totally against the use of drones and against war except when our nation is directly threatened. The problem is, technology has changed since WWI and WWII and it's not a black and white call on whether we are directly threatened.

@Brian Carlson...I don't think anyone should be so presumptuous as to know the mind and will of G-d. The personal involvement with each individual is only one interpretation of the Supreme Being. There are many other interpretations that does not involve G-d directly, such as the "Cosmic Watch Maker." The religious Christian zealots claim that they know His will and intent. Although these same zealots claim special religious knowledge and represent the 'truth', they in fact have no more idea what the truth is than anyone else. Secular humanism doesn't get caught up in these "angels on the head of a pin" nonsense arguments. What is obvious is that every human that has survived birth is given full agency.

@Brian Carlson....Yep; we're on the same page. I know the personal heartbreak of rape having worked as a volunteer in a rape crisis center.

@sally -- this is what I said: "Most religions consider abortion to be a sin. However, not all of them consider it to be murder, since they do not agree on when 'human' life begins. " Do you even read what I write? It is a sin -- something to be avoided, but those that consider an embryo in the early stages to be a human being are in the minority. The Catholic church didn't even officially believe that under the middle of the Nineteenth Century. Thus, not all of the religions consider it to be murder.As for leaving a letter out of the name of the Almighty, have you any idea why some people do that? You really don't seem to know much about different faiths.

You should probably study up on comparative religion, the Constitution, and the Roe v. Wade decision itself before you continue to opine.

@Sally....Using an ad hominem attack to support your argument does exactly the opposite. I have experienced the "personal heartbreak" of rape many times. Your presumptions as to what it means to understand rape is off the mark. Rape is not a sexual act per se, but an act of violent hostility that uses sexual assault as a means to demonstrate terror of one over another. A pregnancy that occurs from such is a continuation of that terror. To remove the option of terminating a possible pregnancy is not only cruel but inhumane.

Sally, those of us who are Jewish routinely remove the o when referring to the supreme being. It is not a denial of existence but a sign of ultimate respect and tradition.

@Lyle -- I would also say that rape is the ultimate theft of bodily integrity. By 'integrity' I don't mean honor, I mean the right to be in control within one's own body. The rapist says, "No, I will take even that from you. You are less than me." To surrender bodily integrity for nine months to an unwanted result of that rape, person or not, is just a continuation of that violation.

Sally, I wonder that your direct experiences with heartbreaking child cancer cases leaves you without understanding of their circumstances. There's that thing called empathy.

Considering telling another poster "how stupid your statement sounds" I will share this. Disqualifying yourself from being able to understand the circumstances of childhood cancer while apparently being in the trenches is an admittance of ignorance. Using a word ("sounds") with an aural connotation indicates ignorance either through limited vocabulary or inability to grasp the shades of meaning of a word or term.

Further, the omission of a letter in the word God is a faith-based tradition of the utmost reverence. Why do you not know and respect that?

Sally, I don't think you should attempt to denigrate the comments of others when your own post is in such a sad and sorry state. Misspelled words: 1 ("staement"). Inconsistent use of em dashes: 1 ("Randy--...'most...'", "...Lyle-you..."). Slang/improper English: 2 ("kids," "Give me a break."). Inappropriate use of capitalization: 2 ("YOUR," "NO WAY"). Repetitive word usage: 2 ("fool").

I wouldn't designate you as "stupid" because that would be crass. But your post does not inform or inspire.

@sara -- He went to Harvard. He was elected President of the Law Review. (And that's before his subsequent career that few of us can match.) You don't consider those to be accomplishments? Or do you have higher standards for people with . . . extra melanin?

@sara....I don't quite understand your reference to narcissism. Narcissism has nothing to do with being earned or not. Narcissism is mental health condition. If you are referring to the fact that Obama has a large ego, then I will agree with you. But, show me someone who runs for public office that doesn't have a large ego. The president has more than enough accolades to support his position. Harvard Law, Harvard Law Review, Editor of Harvard Law Review, teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School, civil rights attorney and community organizer; what more do you want for accomplishments?

It seems to me that you have a resentment against those who have accomplished academic prominence. Is it that you fear the intellectuals amongst us? Maybe they know something that you don't.

Yeah Sara .. he won the freakin NOBEL PEACE PRIZE too ... Hahahahah .. let see how he got in Harvard, probably afirmative action, not on merit, but we will never know will we .. Constitutional Scholar that is as freakin funny as the Nobel Phucking Peace prize

@Sally -- Something is making sara blind to Barack Obama's achievements in life. She said he hadn't the accomplishments to back up his 'smugness', when he obviously has accomplishments that few of us manage, especially as the child of a middle class single mother. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with his policies -- just not label him a narcissist when everyone in this race seems to think pretty highly of himself, and with less justification.

JB - really? Are we really going to invoke Birtherism here? Honestly. The President is and has always been an American Citizen. To claim other wise is to perpetuate the media propaganda you decry. The president has shown over and over again his willingness to compromise - I remind you of the debt ceiling debate last winter. The issue is a Republican Party whose number one agenda item is to make Mr. Obama a one term president - not serve the people of the country.

It seems to me (and countless others) the Conservative Movement in this country love to make bold and daring claims. When they are called to the table, they decry liberal bias or an affront to the First Ammendment. Never mind in their victimhood the influence of religion is stronger than ever, thier control of the media is so complete NPR - whose standards and practices are to tell both sides of a story - is considered the liberal elite, and the tax policy of corp. are non existent as they decry the lack of income tax to the povery stricken (GE, the multi-billion dollar corp. paid zero income tax last year). Aren't corp. people my friends?

How the conservatives on this blog are so willing and eager to vote and support those completely opposed to thier self interest will amaze and frustrate me to the point of madness.

@FreeThought
If you can read and then comprehend, you see that I am saying that Obama WAS born in the US and it is he who is taking advantage of not being honest about his own citizenship. He could take advantage of things not offered to US citizens of he lied about his own place of birth. That is why I believe he is refusing to release his Harvard records.

"Control of the media", are you posting from the US? If so then you are completely ignorant to the media around you.

The CEO of GE is friends of Obama and worked with is administration. The ACA will have a greater negative impact on the middle class and poor as they are forced into medical insurance they might been able to opt out of. Unemployment is down under Obama. I have greater trust in corporations then I do in Government, whether it is under Dem of Rep control.

My self interest is to make as many people rich as possible. That way I have a better chance of getting rich myself. Under you libs, no one is rich and we all share an existence with a lower median wage and less chance for success. While the Government holds all the power.

The President released his birth certificate. He then had to release his long form. Now he is being asked to release his Harvard records. What will be asked of him next? How much more will the man need to include to prove a multicultural individual with a global expirience should be included in the conversation and qualified to lead?
I am in the US. I am a proud American. The issue isn't my ignorance. The issue is my ability to be objective - which I have. The fact that out and open Conservative Media has sold the country that it is "Fair and Balanced" because it tells only one side of the story is insulting to media professionals carrying on proud traditions; especially when so many of thier stories are debunked as fiction.
I honestly don't care who the COE of GE is friends with. He has too many tax loopholes as well has his Corp. I pay a higher rate than both he and his corp. combined. Where is liberty and the pursuit of happiness when I am the only one sacrificing for the country?
I also wish everyone to be a rich as possible. It's too bad the incomes of the middle class have remained stagnant compared to those of the super rich. Cost of living has increase well and above income levels. These points can not be argued. They are concrete facts. A vast majorty of the country - poor and middle class - are asked to sacrifice for the comforts of the rich. When that is questioned, so is our patriotism. That's flat out wrong. Only one party has any interest to address this.

So....gaining the highest office in the land....without the aid of, let's say, a father that is President, or a multimillion dollar income, is not an accomplishment? JB, lets face it...this is a big frigging job that requires someone pretty smart (political views aside) to deal with the issues that come up in a week let alone four years. You don't like What he has done, but don't try to build a case that this is an average man. Even Dub, who was handed his job...while no Mensa candidate...was not a simpleton.

_Election_ race, Sally. Election race. You're free to dislike Barack Obama for whatever irrational reason you choose, other than for a lack of accomplishments in life. I doubt you've gone to Harvard or been elected head of the Harvard Law Review.

Not for the storm.... For the bungled response.

I like how the haughty pseudo intellectual Brian Carlson always sides with the DemoRats.

@sara....If you have been following Brian for any length of time, you'd know just how wrong your statement is.

Bush was blamed for the bungled response as indicated by Brian Carlson. His federal budgets first cut funds for levee maintenance/repairs, leaving them vulnerable/underserviced. Prior computer modeling indicated that levees would indeed fail in the event of a severe weather incident, with no action taken. The hiring of Michael "Brownie" Brown as national FEMA director drew fire. Brownie falsified his resume, claiming service as an "Assistant City Manager" when in fact his title was "Assistant to." No city management experience. His other work experience was as head of a national Arabian Horse association, which he bankrupted because of lawsuits filed against him/organization due to unsubstantiated accusations of surgically altering registered animals (cosmetic surgery). More anger was expressed because Condoleeza Rice, responsible for FEMA, chose to continue her NY vacation throughout the crisis. Bush also continued his travels. More fire was drawn when illegal citizen militia groups such as Blackwater, GE security force, etc., were allowed access and action in New Orleans. Bush suspended prevailing wage laws and contracts were made with out of state firms instead of providing funds to local businesses to bolster the local economy. Workers were paid less than minimum wage. Contractors sub-contracted, filtering illegal workers brought in from Central America to increase profits. Etc. etc. etc. Don't forget Barbara Bush's famous, "This is working very well for them." Hm.

Yes you are not a DemoRat yet you side with them every time you open your male chauvinist misogynist pie hole! Good day sir.

Wow, Brian. I looks as if name calling is one of the practices of the Humble Serious A-Intellectuals.

@Brian Carlson....Wow, you better be careful; you're taking on demonic characteristics. Anybody that doesn't agree with conservative extremists are immediately labeled as Democrats and or communists. It's hard to remain rational in light of such partisanship.

Pseudo intellectual. I know of a few. One trots out the atheist adulteress passport bride Ayn Rand, another pseudo-intellectual, to impress with his knowledge of an "ism." Others claim to have understanding of female biology beyond that of prevailing medical knowledge. How tiresome.

The moment I decided to vote for Barack Obama: during a presidential debate when McCain was "talking to" Joe the Plumber, Obama laughed and started "talking" to him too. At that point I'd been sulking because my preferred candidate didn't get nominated. My default vote goes Libertarian and I was leaning that way again until that moment. Then I realized that the man had serious intellectual chops and what a refreshing change from the anti-intellectualism of the past 8 years.

I think all the politicians say they want to get past partisan politics, bring us all together, etc. Christ couldn't pull that off. Mohammed got as far as statehood. If we want to look for divisiveness we don't have to look too far. Argument rather than consultation is a starting point.