I think Evan need a lot of political education. You Idolize a snake ? I pity you.

Cry more

Yes, people who do the right thing deserve national media attention. As for Walker creating an oligarchy, I find that quite ironic. All he did was take certain powers away from the labor unions who had a stranglehold upon Wisconsin. If you have a problem with rule by a few select group of people,(labor union leaders for the past 50 years?) then perhaps you should take a good hard look at both sides first.

jh you refuse to see the unions want anarchy? We are a Republic for a reason.... you claim you fight for democracy yet you don't let anyone have a voice or vote unless it's what you want....... There are no re-do's in a democracy or a Republic....

You all are fighting for anarchy............ OWN IT!!

@Cynthia -- Anarchy? Really?

As for why you are Republican, I think it is to your interest to promote a weak and helpless workforce. Given enough time, the next step will be an end to private sector unions as well, just as they've managed to do in Indiana.

Our Wisconsin predecessors saw fit to allow both public and private sector unions, and to provide for recalls of elected officials under specific circumstances, which we have met. Our state DOES allow for a do-over.

Again randy..... since when is there no public and private sector unions? What busted them and how? In your mind maybe......... but look around 27 States have already done this policy and there are still unions.............

JH......you've been watching too much MSNBC. Makes you myopic. Harsh reality is, virtually EVERY politician has staff that work on their re-election "off the books". Those that don't are probably lying. Kind of like you doing you blogging at work I'd guess. Or any of us......going on the internet, doing our "personal" stuff on company time. While it's certainly non-productive, I don't think it's reason to re-establish capital punishment in Wisconsin.

Chuck, I'm sure you're right about political staff doing other things during work time. These days, the internet brings everything together.

The issue at hand is the apparent installation of a separate email system and hardware. Personally I am aware of only two previous similar instances, one during the George W. Bush administration when it was revealed after Hurricane Katrina that Republicans had also installed a separate email system to bypass White House email archiving regulations, and a friend's former place of employment, where a group of young employees had installed an independent network so they could play online video games without detection.

In any of these circumstances, time and resources were invested to circumvent the rules, and that's disturbing. In the case of the video gamers, they brought in their own equipment, but I have no idea who footed the bill for the Milwaukee County employees. No, I don't think capital punishment should be re-established to deal with this, but I do believe what happened in Milwaukee County is a breach of rules.

You ever think to yourself when you read countless articles/posts in support for Walker that jee, those people aren't millionaires/billionaires maybe I am just full of hot air?

The never ending entitlement state of the public union is over in Wisconsin. Give it a rest. Or buck up and donate to your local teacher.

An interesting article to say the least, but I fail to see just how this in any way, shape, or form takes away from what Scott Walker is doing to fix the immediate fiscal problem Wisconsin currently is in. Whether or not he has wealthy benefactors, can you not agree that this state is now on the right track?

Evan, my position is that Scott Walker is following the ALEC agenda instead of working for Wisconsin as he promised to do.

I cannot agree that our state is on the right track. Job growth is near-static (1,100 new jobs as of 12/2011), we have been at or near the top of the nation in job loss since Gov. Walker's budget went into effect, we still have a GAAP deficit and a projected cash shortfall. Gov. Walker's budget calls for taking 21,000+ public workers off the state payroll through various means (layoffs, not hiring vacant posts, turning state jobs into appointments for friends), and nearly 8,000 have lost their jobs already. During the worst recession since the Great Depression. That means more people on unemployment, fewer taxes paid--this is partly why there's a projected $143 million cash shortfall. The decision was also made to offer tax cuts to corporations, and financial concessions were forced from public workers to pay for them. That was on top of unpaid days off the workers had received under Gov. Doyle.

In addition, Scott Walker has made cuts to BadgerCare, and increased taxes for thousands of our state's poorest families through cuts to the Homestead and EIC tax credits. The people eligible for these initiatives are moderate/low income or living in poverty (Ex. the Federal definition of poverty is a family of 4 living on about $25,000/year).

With all this, I can't in good conscience say that our state is on the right track.

Yes, I would agree that we are not quite out of the woods yet. I did some homework and checked out how things were going under the Doyle administration back in 2009 before Walker took over. Whether or not you agree with his politics, you have to admit that a $143 million budget deficit is a heck of an improvement over the $6.5 billion deficit we had three years ago . Is the crisis over? No, I would say not. Are we on the right track? The numbers don't lie.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/44533322.html

@Bren -

Those 8,000 people that lost their jobs with the state were each paying $17,875 or more in annual state income taxes?

You don't honestly expect anyone here to believe that 8,000 state employees were all grossing more than the President of The United State's statutory salary of $400k annually, as they'd have to be in order to realize such a large yearly state income tax burden, do you?

And if that really was going on, all I can say is thank heavens for Scott Walker finally putting an end to that royal taxpayer screw job!

Where is that you get your 'reliable' information from again Bren, Fantasy Land?

Mr. Hoffa, I posted those stats earlier as well you know. The U.S. Dept. of Labor Statistics and the Wisconsin Department of Workforce Development are not what I'd call "fantasy land." Here's an report citing WDWD stats as of October reporting 8,500 fewer jobs in October 2011 from the same time in October 2010. http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/Report_Wisconsin_lost_9700_jobs_last_month_134052458.html

I'll have to resurrect the other stats later today or you can check my previous posts for the links. Despite your insults, you know I don't post unreliable data.

Also, I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from about actual amounts of taxes individual state employees paid as I don't have access to that information.

Evan, my point is that the fiscal problems have not been resolved although we have heard at different times that they have. I find the lack of clarity overall very disturbing. Stripping collective bargaining rights as part of a budget repair bill, having to admit in front of a Congressional committee that it had nothing to do with budget repair, then having it pulled out of the bill and voted on separately--I have a problem with that. Showing legislators two sets of maps (one favorable to them, one not), to influence their decisions--I have a problem with that, too. Or how about $4 million from Walker's new WDEC agency for Spectrum Brands, a company that had already moved its HQ back to WI from Atlanta, and may not have to pay taxes in WI.

Spectrum cont'd. The company (formerly RayoVac) re-chartered itself in DE so it may be exempt from paying Wisconsin taxes. The 60+ jobs that are inferred to be the result of the $4m check are actually openings from Atlanta employees who didn't relocate, so no actual growth. As the company just came back home, it was obviously not planning to move away for the foreseeable future. This blog link contains a radio interview with a Madison news reporter about this issue: http://slysoffice.blogspot.com/2011/11/wtdy-news-director-zach-stein.html (Here's info from WEDC presenting a slightly rosier picture- http://wedc.org/spectrum)
You also saw the JS Online article, "State spends millions for 202 new jobs: Poorly drafted law, minimal oversight lead to huge returns for 3 out-of-state financial firms" http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/state-spends-millions-for-202-new-jobs-f4411f2-139170044.html.

The numbers don't lie Evan, but sometimes they really don't add up, either. It's hard to justify spending $5-6 million on a Voter ID law with 15 known incidents of fraud in 2008 (none of which the VID would have prohibited).

It really doesn't make much sense unless you are familiar with ALEC' multi-state political agenda.

bren............... behind the times again?

“October was the fifth straight month and the eighth month this year in which the federal government
overestimated the preliminary job loss numbers or underestimated job gains for Wisconsin,” Secretary
Newson said. “I am particularly concerned by the disparity in the October preliminary numbers, which were
off by 7,300 for total jobs and 7,900 for private-sector jobs. These unreliable employment statistics out of
Washington misinform the public and create unnecessary anxiety for job seekers and job creators about the
shape of our state’s economy.”
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), Wisconsin’s revised numbers show the state lost
2,400 jobs in October, roughly a 75 percent correction from their initial estimate of 9,700 jobs. Meanwhile,
Wisconsin added 11,000 jobs in June, but BLS initially underestimated that number by roughly 1,500 jobs.

http://dwd.wisconsin.gov/dwd/newsreleases/2011/unemployment/111215_november_state.pdf

bren....... you are assuming that that article refers to legislation done in 2011....... you are wrong.... soooo congratz to bashing your dems and doyle....

@Bren -

You said that the 8,000 people that lost their state jobs in Wisconsin under Walker partly accounted for the $143M projected cash shortfall, right? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that all of that shortfall was because of the state worker job loss - that would compute to each of those 8,000 people paying $17,875 or more in annual state income tax, which would make their base gross pay somewhere around $400k, right?

Now, let's take that gross pay of $400k times the 8,000 people and we get $3.2B in taxpayer funds that would have to be expended for that labor, right?

We already know that their combined state income tax burden would total $143M, the current projected cash shortfall.

So, if we subtract the $3.2B expended by the state for that labor from the $143M in additional tax revenues that such labor provides, there'd still be an additional deficit of $3.057B.

The largest fiscal multiplier ever documented in the US by Keynesian economists is 1.73, or for every $1 that government spends, it actually has the effect of creating an additional $1.73 in the general economy. Assuming the maximum multiplier effect here, we'd have $8.736B less the initial $3.2B investment for a total economic boost of $5.535B outside the 8,000 employees' continued employment with the state.

Even if we take into account sales and income tax revenues that would be experience from the increased economic activity realized via the 'multiplier effect,' we'd still only be generating an additional $500M - $600M in tax revenues.

So, even with the increased economic activity that would be realized by virtue of keeping those 8,000 state jobs, and the tax revenues that could be expected from increased activity, we'd still have an additional deficit of around $2.5B.

Ergo, your argument that Walker taking 8,000 people off the state's payroll somehow contributes to the state's budget deficit is entirely erroneous, as in fact the exact opposite is true.

I guess that new liberal math just doesn't add up to reality, does it Bren? Try again.

@Bren -

BTW - 'The Nation' is not a biased free 'reliable' source. You may as well just have linked the kid to the Daily Kos!

I honestly expected better from you Bren.

Cynthia, the revision to October numbers are noted. On page 30 of your link it posts "The public sector lost 12,100 jobs over the year" which was higher than the number I had, but perhaps there were some hires made. The report also indicates a fair amount of flux in the numbers report monthly, so I believe stating it upfront would counter Newson's contention that this is deliberate misinformation.

Concerning those numbers, I did write "part." From what I understand (because it is hearsay at this point), the cash shortfall could end up being higher. I hope not, but let's see what happens.

The point of sharing a link from The Nation instead of a topically-similar article from the New Yorker that I recently shared is that I believe it's important for people to rely on more than one type of news source, as you and I have discussed. You love movies, and I'm sure you don't limit yourself to one film genre or director. There are so many viewpoints and nuances to consider.

Actually, I have you to thank Noelle. Your recent article on the Republican Party and the consequential feedback that followed is what inspired me to write my own piece. I knew I might be potentially subjecting myself to some negative comments, but this is worth fighting for. I appreciate the heads up however and I will do my best in standing up for what I firmly believe.

Noelle, in the interest of transparency, you have made a number of what could be called "personal attacks" or "name calling" in the comments of your recent blog, which Evan will read if you haven't scrubbed them.

I understood that 2,500 attendees was the generous estimate from the pro-Walker rally, and that 1,200 was the conservative number poster. If helpful, here's a Politiscoop article which places the number at 1,000: http://www.politiscoop.com/us-politics/wisconsin-politics/683-pro-walker-rally-massive-pr-nightmare.html

Evan, if you are interested in learning more about government and politics, may I recommend an internship with the U.S. Department of State. Here is a link to their website if you are interested: http://careers.state.gov/students/programs

Bren, enter example B. yes, I have name called when I am personally attached. Ie: sad, silly little liberal.". That's true and I happen Evan stand up for himself too. As far as my event, google search "celebrate walker rally hart park". Judge for yourself Evan, clearly, you're a very intelligent young man.

Noelle, please cite where I became "Example B" by indulging in name-calling or personal attacks. I pointed out that you omitted disclosure of your own participation in negative remarks.

Evan, you have learned in school about what information sources are considered official/acceptable, and which are not. For example, many instructors will not accept Wikipedia as an acceptable citation reference. When you Google the Hart Park rally you will find many bloggers providing their own version of events, but I hope that you will be true to the writing/journalistic standards you have learned and seek the facts of this and other matters.

And as the top of your link reveals politiscoop is CITIZEN JOURNALISTS. Incase you missed ethics 101 bren- that is NOT a creditable news source. Get real.

Noelle, could you explain your justification (topically and grammatically) for your comment to Keith Schmitz, "Spare even of your crazy ranting please."

I am interested in learning more about your purported anti-personal attack stance when you appear to be indulging in a significant amount of it yourself. Could you offer some parameters of what you consider a personal attack to be, and the circumstances when it is (apparently) acceptable or unacceptable? Thanks,

Noelle, the subtle point was that there were no solid, reliable attendance numbers provided for the rally. Photographs were also unsuccessful in revealing the precise numbers of individuals who attended.

At the time, I had expressed my concern with the choreography of the rally event. This was, in my view, the strategic opportunity to rally attendance that approached, if not rivaled that of the height of last spring's anti-Walker protests. Given the hearsay accounts of actual attendance, perhaps it is best for pro-Walker supporters that the numbers remain nebulous.

Concerning your aggressive comments to me and use of commentary such as accusing a poster of "crazy ranting," may we consider you "Example C?"

Since when is politipoop a reliable source?? I have to laugh at the _______ people that would use that link as a reference........ Twice now I have seen a politipoop article linked today.... sorry, they lie, they slander, they make up what they want to get you to have a tingle run down your leg.....

bren I think that if a public sector worker gave an amount of 4,000 that is credible.... anyway if you want to argue about it, blow up the photos, number the people then get back to us.............. until then we don't need your kool-aide blog as a resource....

Sad to constantly refer to others opinions as left or right with nasty comments. I don't think that people who are worried about educating our children and are concerned about such large cuts to education are necessarily "left" or people who favor business growth are always"right". But it is sad to see people labeling each other in demeaning.fashion and not listening to both points of view. Civility might be nice.

You may want to re-read your comments above and take on your own words of wisdom JH

Evan, enter example A.

What in the world are you talking about Sarah Noelle Palin?

Thanks Keith. I see the parallel. She smart, independent , fearless and she has a lot of guns. Was that supposed to offend me? Save it for my blogs. Spare even of your crazy ranting please.

Keith, funny you should say that.

It seems that Gene Simmons (KISS' front man, bass player and marketing genius) would likely be the perfect role model for him.

Enjoy the below videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbCFaBL0IiA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHvYM7S2KFY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEMCil2iRt4&feature=related

You'll like this one as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrHf7HWtLDY

Evan: Great job with the article, keep up the good work.
Noelle: I would take the Sarah Palin comment as a big compliment. She comes from a blue collar family and knows more about hard work than any other candidate in my memory. I would bet on her in a slug fest over a, b, and c anytime.

Randy, he started the article by stating he's new to politics. So quit being a bully. (oooooops! There's that name calling again). Sorry. But seriously, don't pick on the kid about something he admits he's still learning.

Is asking someone to explain a political belief a form of bullying now? Presumably this young man is going on to college, where he will have to support a thesis, so it shouldn't be too onerous.

Or are you really in support of simply accepting and repeating what one is told?

Again, Evan, why should Scott Walker be my hero? Convince me.

Noelle, how can asking a valid question about Wisconsin politics be construed as "bullying," or "pick[ing] on the kid about something he admits he's still learning."

Given the interesting interpretation of American history that you presented in your recent blog article, perhaps it shouldn't be assumed that Evan possesses a similar level of practical knowledge.

Randy, you're right, nothing is wrong with asking him to convince you. It seemed to have a harsh, antagonizing tone, but I supposed you can't detect inflection in written word. On a serious note, you are one of the most respectable leftists within the patch participants. I mean that with sincerity. Except for maybe the punching comment.

Bren, you are relentless. When you don't get your way, it's all about stomping your metaphorical foot isn't it. Save it for my page or yours. Leave it off his.

Noelle, a.k.a., "Example C," I interpret your statement "when you don't get your way, its all about stomping your metaphorical foot, isn't it" as another example of psychological/Freudian projection, rather than specifically pertaining to me.

And until we are publicly notified by Patch that you are a Patch moderator you do not decide who and/or what is posted.

Randy: No, I think this is a perfectly decent question and I will try to answer it to the best of my ability. The problem lies in PUBLIC sector collective bargaining. This form of bargaining is different from other types (ex. Private sector) in that it’s not based upon the trends of the market. Collective bargaining in the public sector has been engineered so that the workers get benefits heaped upon benefits whether they deserve them or not. Consequently there have been numerous abuses of this policy in the past which make this an unaffordable plan for Wisconsin. I remember hearing examples of the abuse of benefits where teachers get endless sick days and vacation days. And where does this money come from to afford these benefits? The taxpayers.
So why is Scott Walker my hero? Simply because closed the door on a system that needs to come to an end and refuses to quit till he finishes the job. And most importantly not for his own sake, but because he recognizes it as a need for the people of Wisconsin.

Oh Evan,
Did anyone ever tell you about how the wine flows like beer, and the women flock like the salmon of Capistrano? The unions have so much. Endless sick days, money trees, chocolate fountains...yeah, real chocolate fountains, with an endless supply of chocolate. Oh how they gorge, frolic, and fornicate! That is how I knew that I wanted to be a public sector union guy. Now, it's off to my golden bed to be with my maidens.

I assume most teachers would probably support Evan's interest in politics even if they didn't support his POV. Of course there's always going to be the exception who thinks it's more appropriate to mock him for it.

I agree with Bob McBride that teachers would approve of Evan's interest in politics. But there's nothing wrong with a challenge in an attempt to elicit information or to inspire a student to get more facts.

So again, Evan, I'm going to ask what you feel was the cause of Wisconsin's budget shortfall. Because I believe it has more to do with the economic downturn, which left people out of work and unable to pay state income tax and sales tax sufficient to the state's needs. Governor Walker cut expenditures at the state level by adjusting the compensation of state workers and cutting state aid to local governments. (Taxes at the state level did not really go down for the average Wisconsin resident.) This pushed the problem down to the local level where it would be paid by the property taxpayer, and Act 10 was meant to disguise this by forcing local governments to cut the compensation of their teachers, sanitation workers, etc. and giving them the ability to do it.

Part 2 -- Now, as a property taxpayer, I agree that the school levies were out of hand, and we seem to be getting less and less for our dollar as time goes on, but I'm not sure this is the fault of the teachers. You may be too young to remember, but several decades ago there was some public discussion of the fact that education was important, and that there should be some attempt to lure intelligent people into the profession, when frankly they could do so much better in the private sector with their level of education.

You may also be too young to remember California's Prop 13, and the disastrous effect it had on public services in that state.

Randy what do you think the total price was on the illegal 'occupation' of the Capitol?

How about the NEEDED extra security (did you see the price tags from around the State that rolled in?)

How about the damages that needed repair around the Capitol? (don't dare say there was no damage)

What are the costs of the past recalls and recount?

What are the projected costs of the next round of recalls?

NOW tell me why there is a projected 143 Million dollar deficit in 2013.......

@Cynthia -- Cost to the Capitol building $270K. Cost of overtime security -- $7.5 million. And just think, all the state legislature and Gov. Walker had to do was to accept the concessions the various unions were offering and put a sunset into the collective bargaining thing, which Gov. Walker himself admitted before Congress had nothing to do with budgetary matters.

Besides, I was not referring to the projected shortfall when I asked Evan what brought our state into economic straits. I meant the shortfall that prompted the Budget Repair Bill in the first place. Just so we have that clear.

randy.... now add in the recalls, recount

Also I guess you missed the GOP compromise? Why didn't the dems take it? Oh yea because the unions said no compromise UNLESS FORCED MEMBERSHIP AND FORCED AUTO PAID DUES WERE PUT BACK IN.....

blame your coward dems and not the GOP

@Cynthia -- You have me there. I did manage to miss the GOP compromise. Was that the one where Scott Walker told 'David Koch' how he planned to lure the Wisconsin 14 home to discuss a compromise and would then ram the BRB on through once he had the quorum?

How would mandatory membership and collection of dues affect the state's budget at all? No, we all know what it was about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJdijPEBJE

@Bob Mcbride

Well, I am happy for his interest in politics, but I have no interest for his interest in politics as usual. I feel like my sarcasm was called for, because his statement was idiotic. He might as well learn now that you can go through life being dumb, but you better be tough. In making an argument for why he feels this way, stating he "once heard" something ridiculous and unfounded will discredit any intelligence he might have with the laziness of his endeavor. If he had interest in politics, he might just have interest in the truth.

Geez randy I have posted it before... it's even from one of your leftist sources...

Under the compromise floated by Walker and detailed in the e-mails, workers would be able to continue bargaining over their salaries with no limit, a change from his original plan that banned negotiated salary increases beyond inflation. He also proposed compromises allowing collective bargaining to stay in place on mandatory overtime, performance bonuses, hazardous duty pay and classroom size for teachers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41979185/ns/politics-more_politics/t/wis-governor-proposes-union-compromise/#.TzvMnFxAtPd

randy ending FORCED membership and FORCED auto paid dues was giving employee's the choice of being a member..... Why are you against those employee's having a choice and not being FORCED? Do you think every public sector employee wants to be in the union? If you do then you have your blinders on tighter then normal....

Only is the DA is willing to be dishonest and get a bogus charge to try to hurt Walker. Will know that is the case if after months of fishing some charge is brought now before the recall election. It will then be a tale of how corrupt the Democratic party is in this state.

@Keith Schmitz -

And the verdict is still out on the little stunt that you pulled with your co-op over in Shorewood? Get real.

I'm not so sure that you should be so quick to throw any stones my friend!

You would think that AFTER 2 years there would be something linked to Gov. Walker if he was guilty? Yet every article says he is NOT. You can keep hoping, but I'm afraid you are going to be disappointed ....

Some of them are sleazy in Washington, not hard to understand that is it?
Still trying to pin that guilt by association game on Walker? OMG coworkers sent emails wow no way and Walker has been more than helpful the entire time. Jim Doyle robbed the state of 3.6 billion dollars if you want to play the sleaze ball game I'll step up to the plate, but with this tangent you try and distract from the real intent, Walker has saved this state.

Lastly you go to the preschool pages of the leftist handbook and start typing Fox news this Fox news that. Give it a rest. Surprised you didn't throw a Koch or ALEC in there while you were at it.

Just like every other employer............... Just think....... lena 'don't you know who I am' taylor wants business's and schools to hire felons before honest folk............. hummmmmmm maybe we should john doe her employees....

Thank you Mr. Bradly. Although I agree that it is most unfortunate that we live in a time where sleazy politicians are the expected norm, I still hold out hope that this stereotype will change over time. I suppose that opinion naturally comes with being young however.

WI moving FORWARD. It's the unions and the individuals throwing temper-tantrums that are dividing the State....

obviously you were not there...............

AMEN!!!!

Dave,

Perhaps you could impart some of that "new information" that you feel might cause him to change his mind and offer up a few examples, by name, of some of the folks he should be supporting instead of the one he's supporting now.

I would like to make it quite clear that I am the farthest thing from rigid. Just because I stated in my article that I was new to politics does not mean I ignorantly follow where I'm led because I don't know any better. I've had months to digest the information presented to me and take my own educated stance based upon what I have learned. I've gathered information from both sides of the aisle and did my research. But at the end of the day my loyalty will not lie in a single party or person. Unless that person happens to uphold what I do value most: honesty, integrity, and the commitment to pursuing the well-being of the American people. I see that in Scott Walker. Therefore I will stand rigid in this man unless I see for myself a better alternative. Please feel free to share that with me.

Who are you to tell Evan Nickel "you don't have a knowledge of politics or government."

Because, you don't seem to know that Koch Industries employs 203,000 "Americans" Nationwide, and is responsible for creation of 11,000 direct and indirect jobs in the State of Wisconsin, alone. By the same token, GE Healthcare employs 6,000 in Wisconsin and the CEO of GE doesn't live here either, but In 2010, "GE contributed $1,380,845 to political candidates, political organizations such as governors’ associations and state political parties, and/or ballot initiatives."

Apparently, you also support the "democratic" process for labor unions to contribute to the election campaigns of the very same politicians that will "negotiate" the labor contracts for the people who bankrolled their election.

@C. Sanders -- It's hard to tell how much knowledge of politics and government Evan has, and that's why I'm trying to bring him out on the subject. At the very least, at the age of eighteen, Evan lacks the direct perspective on actions by the government and their eventual consequences that someone in their sixties has.

For all I know, Evan has done a lot of independent reading on both sides of the issue, because I know at least one person his age who has. Or he's just listened to what his Dad has told him at the dinner table and watched Hannity once or twice. I'd like to judge that for myself.

What freedom of choice have you lost? Also it's not Gov. Walker that has pitted neighbor against neighbor.... Obviously you don't follow the jobs moving into the State....

Of course I'm not old enough to foresee the consequences of Walker's administration and his plan for Wisconsin. However, I have had the chance to see the legacy of what Jim Doyle left behind after eight years, and I can't say that I find this remotely appealing. That is the basis for which I began my opinion of Walker and his policies. Even though I am subjected to many different viewpoints daily, I make it a point to review both sides and ONLY then come to my own personal verdict. I appreciate hearing that I am clueless since that motivates me to learn even more, but frankly you aren't offering any better alternatives to Walker that I can see. I would love to hear your solution.

Well I guess we'll see, Dave. I'd have thought you'd use your opportunity to show him how a thoughtful, unbiased individual imparts information in a fashion that leads the recipient of it to give it some serious thought, but I guess I'm not surprised really that you reverted to a bunch of partisan talking points instead. Of course it's easy enough for him to look back on some of your previous posts for a more in-depth analysis of what you're all about.

In the end, the people will decide, by a vote, whether Walker stays or goes. It's just that simple.

Bob, a quick fact check about your accusation that Dave Koven had "reverted to a bunch of partisan talking points."

1. Scott Walker is indeed up for a recall vote, as are several other Republican incumbants.
2. The John Doe investigation has indeed led to arrests/questioning of several close Walker associates.
3. The prank phone call from "Dave Koch" did indeed include a discussion about causing disruption during the Madison protests (link to actual prank call recording here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/23/scott-walker-buffalo-beast-phone-prank_n_827058.html)
4. State jobs picture: by my accounting it will take more than 200 years to achieve 250,000 new jobs at current growth rates
5. "Any" money to bring relief to constituents used to balance the budget: This one is partially accurate. Scott Walker and AG Van Hollen decided to appropriate approximately $26 million from Wisconsin's $143 million portion of the mortgage settlement to use toward the state's projected cash shortfall (please check some of my earlier posts for more specifics).

These aren't partisan talking points and they aren't biased.

Bren,

Read the thread this was referencing. Dave suggested that Evan be open to new information that may change his POV. I suggested to Dave he present some of this "new information" and he replied with some shopworn talking points. Talking points, by definition, aren't necessarily untruths. Here's the Wikipedia definition:

"A talking point in debate or discourse is a succinct statement designed to persuasively support one side taken on an issue.[1][2][3][4] Such statements can either be free standing or created as retorts to the opposition's talking points and are frequently used in public relations, particularly in areas heavy in debate such as politics and marketing."

Given that definition, Dave's response was accurately described by me - not so much by you.

Bob, I would disagree. As the definition you provided indicates, "Such statements can either be free standing or created as retorts to the opposition's talking points and are frequently used in public relations, particularly in areas heavy in debate such as politics and marketing," examples of political "talking points" include:

"We're broke"
"We've balanced the budget"
"The union bosses.."
"Public employees are now paying their fair share"

Today's talking points are shorthand agenda items designed to be slick/catchy easily memorized and chanted. I didn't find anything slick or catchy in Dave's post. There's a sincere difference between PR material and facts.

Obviously you can disagree, Bren. Doesn't really change anything, however.

The response Dave gave included the standard laundry list of bullet point one liners that have, in fact, at this point become nothing more than talking points. And unless one is condescending enough to assume that Evan is basing his opinions on nothing more than information he's being selectively fed by someone else, it's a good bet he's already aware of the fact that Walker's being recalled, that he had a phone conversation with someone pulling a morning-zoo style prank, etc, etc.

Again, nothing new in there. Dave let his emotions get the best of him or something and took the easy way out - fall back on the talking points. He had the opportunity to show Evan that those with opposing viewpoints can have a thoughtful discussion (see Randy above, for instance) and he could have imparted whatever "new information" he implied was available out there. He chose not to.

That's why "they" call it polarization, I suppose...

And yet the Reagan years marked the beginning of downsizing, off-shoring, and corporate takeovers that left some people doing very well while others found themselves looking for work. It marked the beginning of thirty years of middle-class wage stagnation while CEO income took off.

FICA was doubled in order to save ahead for the retirement of the Baby Boomers, and then it was borrowed to keep taxes low, while we ran up deficits to pay for an arms race that left the Soviet Union in the dust. Remember how 'deficits don't matter'? Not as long as they're GOP deficits.

What was it about Ronald Reagan that inspired support and trust other than his avuncular manner and stylish political ads?

I'd take Ronald Reagan back in a heartbeat. Personally, those were the best years we had.

@Randy1949, "downsizing, off-shoring, and corporate takeovers that left some people doing very well while others found themselves looking for work", sounds like the obama administration.

@Mau -- It has been happening since the 1980s, and frankly, the Clinton administration was no different. But surely you can't believe it only started with Barack Obama.

@Mau -- I'd take Reagan back in a heartbeat. I'd take Eisenhower back. I'd even take Nixon, compared to how far right the Republican party has gone. However, do you remember that during the Clinton years we actually ran a surplus? That's something to think about with all the worries over record deficits and the debt ceiling.

@Randy 1949, oh no. Look at all the manufacturing companies that have closed their doors in SE Wisconsin since the 70's. I remember many companies laying off thousands at a time. I don't think there is any administration that has the heart to make the changes to turn this country round. I just hope that Greece is not our future. It will be a sad day when this country needs to borrow from the IMF to stay afloat. And that idea has already been suggested. Imagine the IMF (us) lending money to our government (us).

@Randy1949 -

The only way Clinton ran surpluses was because of the $1T+ raid on the SS fund - we already covered this on other boards.

The only President in modern history that ran true surpluses and actually paid down some of our debt, as opposed to incurring more, was Jimmy Carter.

And yes, I'd definitely take Carter over Obama in a heartbeat if those were the only two choices available.

@JRH --Are you saying that Clinton converted some of the Social Security Trust fund rather than 'investing' excess Social Security revenues in T-bills, which is just another way of adding to the debt?

@Randy1949 -

Well, you wouldn't be selling and purchasing your own T-Bills if you weren't spending money that you didn't actually have to spend without having to go through such a measure, would you be?

Carter was the only modern President that ran true surpluses and actually contributed to paying down the federal debt.

Clinton's claimed surpluses were nothing more than accounting gimmicks coupled with a lot of smoke and mirrors.

So that means you are going to drop the word "thug?" mau mau?

Convince me then. Share your solution to righting the problems in Wisconsin that you seem to think that Walker is unable to fix. Tell me why Walker is not the man for the job, and better yet who we should replace him with. I have my opinions, but I'm at that impressionable stage where there is no such thing as too much information. I have no problem with discussing this in a civil and orderly manner.

@Evan -- That's what I was getting at when I asked you about the cause of Wisconsin's budget shortfall going into 2011. Because if public employees ability to bargain collectively wasn't the cause, then curtailing their ability to bargain collectively will not be a solution. Asking public employees to take a cut in compensation for the short term was quite reasonable, and they were willing to do it. But the Governor went further, and you have to ask why.

Well for your information it is not hard at all to idolize a politician as a hero when they exemplify everything that I would look for in leader. The truly ignorant thing to do would be to lump all politicians into the same category and assume that just because some have neglected their duty to serve the citizens, that all are the same.

Have you signed your enlistment papers yet?

Better yet, get home boy and come back when you have earned the right to be called a "man" like the rest of us who have earned the right through life experience. Do you have a daddy?

917 lombard ave.... I have nothing to hide!

I think that Bill got lost on his way over to the Daily Kos and ended up here.

Looks that way. With "Fearless Leader" in town today, I'm sure we can expect to see more than the usual number in these parts. Some of the locals are already primping for the potential attention, I see.

Happen to notice all the sloppy adoration over at the kid's blog and Noelle's blog for 1% Walker? They long to run their fingers over his bald spot.

Couldn't help noticing you're all over Noelle's "blog", too, Keith.

Pick the burrs out of your hair shirt and smile for the webcam. It's your big day.

He is filled with angst because he cannot talk his way out of his loan. He likes the "you just don't understand" explanation the best. No, Keith, we do understand. You are a free-loader who only wants handouts.

Very interesting Homer thanks for that bit of info....... I see keith takes advantage of those business loans................ wonder if it got paid back??

Who did you fight? Didn't see any fights in my yard.No one after me that I know of. Care to expand?

$$andSense: I'am talking about being an ex service man. You know , a Veteran. I served my country from Dec. 7, 1968 to Dec.19. 1969, in the republic of South Vietnam. Anything else you'd like to add ?

I check in on this 3 days later and the spew still flies, AWESOME!

@Dennis Allen. HUGE apology from me. Like my older brother and my brother in laws and countless cousins, they like you were drafted and sent into that BS maelstrom called Vietnam. I have no reason to cross swords with you. You manned up, did your duty and I have nothing but respect for your generation that served. Not like the current types that voluntarily sign up and then see the crying over dead or maimed bodies for nothing more than political or mostly religious ideals.

No, they're attempting to recall Scott Walker because of his behavior in office. Impeachment is for breaking the law, recall is for overreaching one's 'mandate'. Scott Walker won by a narrow margin in an off year marked by economic dissatisfaction on the right and apathy on the left, and he was not completely clear about his intentions. This is about much more than the schools.

We'll see if Governor Walker retains his majority now that the electorate has been awakened. At the very least, consider the recall as a huge vote of no confidence.

What is sad is the unions are spending 100's of millions of dollars of union dues ...... for what? Nothing will change...........

@Cynthia -- Hundreds of millions? Really?

uhhhh yes randy........ count it up...............

@Cynthia -- Presumably you're talking about paid political ads to counter the paid political ads that tell us how well Governor Walker's reforms are working. Or are you speaking of the paid political ads during the upcoming Presidential election? That's business as usual, don't you think?

I wish it weren't, but you do have the sort of voter who is swayed by a TV spot of a candidate standing in a corn field and telling us how great things are going to be.

randy randy............. do you not keep up with the amounts the unions are pouring into numerous States? Seriously? Are your blinders on that tight? Who do you think pays the plane tickets and hotel stays, bus trips, even paying people per day to hold a sign, they openly had applications (but they didn't offer benefits) They have sent teamsters from around the Nation to different States. How much did they give each of the dem candidates last year? How much have they given to PACs, Heck they have even given money to segway boy and his dirty dozen. How much do you think those rally's in Madison cost? Who paid for it? How much do you think they will be giving to WTFalk? Do you ever look on opensecrets.org? Have you been asleep?

@Cynthia -- So we're moving from Wisconsin to nationwide now? That's very different. And I haven't been asleep. There's a lot of money being spent on both sides, with different agendas. It all depends on whose side you're on.

The anti-Walker crowd will probably try petitioning the Dane Co DA to have him arrested on trumped on charges, as that seems to be the new strategy when they don't get their way.

right...and maybe it was REALLY Mickey too.

Do you, Matt Remember the incident where some Walker supporters took recall papers away from the people taking signatures and tried to destroy them ? I don't remember the particulars, but if they do something like that is it such a stretch to believe they would sign bogus names to discredit the list of signatures ? And from what I've seen of the people checking the sigs. it looks to me like they're very conscientious in what they're doing.

If the signed name is obviously bogus, how would it discredit the list of signatures? Wouldn't the petition circulator just cross it off and it would be the end of the matter. If the name isn't obviously bogus, why would a pro-Walker person take the chance that the name will slip through as valid?

I can't exactly speak for Hoffa, but it's a pretty safe bet that nobody will make any attempt at a recall should Walker be defeated.

Aside from the obvious hypocrisy involved in supporting the 'politically motivated' kind of recall we have been taking issue with, there's unlikely to be enough time left in the term to have a second recall attempt. It will be 18 months into Walker's term by the time this recall effort is over with. If a new person is elected as governor, it has to be a year before they can be recalled. Add the 6-7 months or so it takes to do the recall itself, and you'll be coming up to the normal election time. Why bother recalling anyone if the potential replacement is going to end up serving less than a year before standing for re-election?

Is there a recall of a politician that isn't politically motivated? Can we count the Clinton incident which was religiously motivated? Is that a better MO.

My opinion is that politics (political motivation) isn't a valid reason to recall someone. If you disagree with the politics of the guy in power, you get a chance to vote them out of office when their term ends.

Clinton's 'incident' had nothing to do with religion--he was accused of a crime (sexual harassment) and perjured himself.

There was no proof of sexual harassment. And, walker is being recalled because of political reasons. Malfeasance, politically, is a darn good reason.

There was NO PROOF? I think the proof was all over the oral office, the bill for cleaning the Presidential Seal would be enough to retire on.

See, that is where you are wrong. You said he was accused of sexual harassment. There was no proof of that, what they did find was that he was having sexual relations with a staffer. He said he was not, and that is what they chased perjury charges on. Did he lie about cheating on his wife? yeah. What percentage of Americans would? I think it would be safe to say that number would be well over 50%.

There was certainly enough proof of sexual harassment to launch an investigation and go before a judge.

Certainly you cannot deny that Clinton lied under oath--he had his law license suspended as a penalty for that. That was what he was impeached for...

I think it is naiive to think the wealthy want us to fail in education. As an employer, I would think they would want well educated employees. As a fellow employee, I would prefer to work alongside a smart, literate person over a nitwit any day.
What we have been doing with education obviously is not working, neither party has offered up any solutions. Adding funding can not be the answer. I do not blame teachers; and parents are part of the issue, but not all. Administrations are afraid of the ranting parent. Instead of telling them (the parent) like it is, they play peacekeeper. Maybe if the parent heard, "your kid is lazy and not doing the work"- things would improve.
Science is a passion, and some kids will never get into science.
Math is a skill that starts early, and should be a discipline every kid must learn just like reading. How we can be failing at math is beyond me. Maybe the solution is eliminate calculators.

lol

Evan, here we have an example of a liberal comparing Walker to Hitler. These are the types that shiver and cry in their bed at night that big bad Walker is winning.
They read a lot of the left wing wacko blogs and in turn are brainwashed into crackpot ideas causing them to type insane ideas here.

@Wesley -

I think you got lost - this is the Patch, not the Daily Kos.

Hoffa....are you hinting this is a conservative blog exclusively? I was really under the impression that this was a community blog.

@Satori -

I was being factious in trying to inject a little humor - we occasional do that here on Patch. My comment wasn't intended to be taken seriously and yes, the Patch is a non-partisan open community forum.

Steve - I have been reading your comments for many weeks, and have concluded, sadly, that you are not engaged in civil discourse, Instead, while driving in your Cadillac Escalade and, you admit, peeling out when the light turns green and intentionally burning up MiddEast imported gas, you use words like wacko, brainwashed, crackpot, and insane in one sentence.
In my college days, we would have referred to you simply as a supreme jerk, not capitalized. That description could be enhanced today, but I leave it to the imagination of the comment readers.