@Jane...Thanks for the compliment. You are precisely on the mark with your comment. World views and the individual's perceptions must be continuously validated since they are so closely tied with the individual definition of reality. This is precisely why small changes are possible and not as threatening. It allows the individual, community and society to slowly assimilate the new elements into the systems of meaning. Look how long it took for women to gain full suffrage.

It is imperative that we attempt to understand before we condemn.

@J.B. Schmidt...Do I need to point out to you that the Coptic Christians have demonstrated in Egypt and elsewhere. What about the Serbian Orthodox and their attempt at ethnic cleansing. However, we don't have to go overseas to see the results of Christians acting on something they see as offensive. Right here in the U.S. it happens all the time. How many murders have been committed by Christians to stop an abortion provider. Most of the paramilitary groups in the U.S. claim that what they are doing is in the name of G-d and Christ. I have been continuously attacked over time as being a liberal atheist and communist. Christians are, for the most part, very intolerant of those that don't hold their same views. Thank heavens that free speech is written into the secular document called the constitution.

@Lyle
Are you saying that technology and the lack of an advanced culture then has no bearing on the decision to riot and kill, but rather the extreme nature of the those doing the rioting and killing? Thus the movie was not the motive, but rather the extreme views of Islam that are held by the terrorists. Just as 9/11 was again the date because they hate western freedom and its unwillingness to accept Islam as the faith of the world.

You also failed to answer my direct question. As your blog relates to the discrepancy in technology, should we not expect the same from other less technologically advanced religions when they see the mocking videos on Youtube?

@J.B. Schmidt....Extremists will use whatever to validate their views. They use the general unsophisticated to support them by the manipulation of information. The riots over the movie are independent from the assassination.

As far as incidents happening in the future because of cyber media misinterpreted by relatively backward people, I can't say for certain that it will happen. But given my hypothesis I would say it is of a high probability of happening again.

@Lyle
You are a hoot. Not even the administration believes the riots were about the movie. In fact, except for a few willing participants in a lie regarding what happened in Lybia, there is no one who believes the movie had anything to do with riots.

I will grant you that in the scope of history, the internet is new; however, there is enough offensive material to piss off any and every religion on the planet. If it is the movie that is responsible, why this one? Why not the last 20mins of Bill Maher's movie Religulous where he mocks Islam? What about the other Youtube videos mocking Islam? You are going to have to face the fact that our president and his men lied to you about the events in Lybia. The Ambassador's own diary reflected a concern that was not connected to the video.

Where else, a side from Islam, has another religion killed an ambassador for something on the internet? Where else has another religion started wide spread, multi-national riots because of what was posted on the internet? This is about a religion out of control, not because the west hasn't apologized enough.

Lyle: You stated, "I have been continuously attacked over time as being a liberal atheist and communist."
But you are neither of those, am I correct?
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I do not see you as either. We don't agree on many things, but I have always thought of you as a mensch.

Barbara Barnes is spot on and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with that bit of common sense. Can't wait to see the pacifist comments on this one. I know you people want to go over to Mohammed Land with your fruit baskets and kiss their feet, but we have American interests to defend.

@Nuitari...You wouldn't know a real American interest if it bit you in the backside. For you and others of your ilk, it's all about me first.

@Barbara Barnes -- You were offended by Lyle's thesis? You have a pretty thin skin. I self-censor all the time on these pages when it comes to my feelings about religion, and that's simply out of courtesy and a wish not to create further conflict.

The attacks in Libya may not have been in response to that moronic video, but demonstrations and anger throughout the rest of the Middle-east certainly were in response to it. Do we use this indignant reaction as proof that Muslims are somehow less mature and reasonable than Westerners? Not unless we all want to be judged by the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.

The countries thus far that have nearly blown the planet back, not to the twelfth century,but to the stone age, have all been non-Islamic countries, mostly Christian, historically. This ignorant finger pointing at "Islam" and gross characterizations of the membership as if they all thought exactly as the extremists among them, perpetuates the potential for more violence. Dialogue, such as this strong piece by Lyle, will help us all rise above our myopic, exclusively self interested, vision.

Barbara: I agree that even Islam needs to accept differences and deal with it peacefully. You mentioned we are in two wars...You are aware that we are involved in many more conflicts than just two?
As a human species it is natural to think we are the supreme human. Be it race, nationality, or religion. Just 50 years ago, Americans sought to do business with people of the same nationality. ie; Slovaks did business with Slovaks, etc.
We are evolving, but not fast enough.

Self-editing should be part of our basic training as social beings. Who wasn't taught, "If you're worried about offending people, should you consider another approach or leave it alone?"

My Islamist acquaintance assures me that the terror organizations are well educated in political and pr strategizing. These aren't ignorant mountain people--they have a philosophy and an agenda. Quite a few middle eastern countries have fallen victim to terrorist attacks over the decades, too.
Those who travel internationally have a much better perspective on how people live and perceive us around the world. The U.S. is technologically and educationally behind a number of industrialized countries, we have less government representation than some others, and we are far less sophisticated culturally than a number of others. It's a wake-up call to folks on their first outings overseas, especially those who don't cower in the tour bus (I've talked to quite a few).

The best recommendation I can make is to get out there and explore the world. If you can prove that you aren't a loud-mouthed boor, many people are interested in speaking with Americans and quite a few speak English quite well. They are interested because the United States has done many good things, despite some underhanded dealings over the years.

Lyle,
Stop being condescending. I am looking at it from a larger context. Our view is right and theirs is wrong. It's that simple. I will not give up my rights to appease people who can't or haven't looked at the world outside of a 11th century view. I know our way is better. In their world women are less than human, gays are put to death. In Egypt Coptic Christians are fleeing for their lives. Stand up for whats right and stop giving everyone equal value. Some cultures should not be valued.

@Barbara Barnes...Your response is critical evidence of your myopic view. To put the world into only two possible choices is testament enough to the reader of your limitations. Your position is why I wrote this blog post. Thinking people with normal curiosity are not threatened by delving more deeply into issues. I find it quite remarkable that you are so quick to display such xenophobic positions and behavior, especially given your years. We're right and they're wrong is the answer of simplistic origins from someone who is either unable or unwilling to deal with the complexities of the world.

@Lyle Rubie I don't believe she is limited in any way. There have to be absolutes in life, otherwise there would be nothing but chaos. Relativism is a slippery slope, and to give equal value to barbaric acts is really out in left field.

Barbara, asking little ol' Lyle to stop being condescending is like asking the sun not to rise. It's in his very make up. It's what he does. Anyone who has ever read his rants knows he loves to hear himself talk (or blog) and truly believes he is far superior to all others. How dare you or anyone else ever disagree with him. After all, he's lived every where ( now he claims in Utah making him, of course, an expert on Mormonism ), worked in EVERY field and is a world renown art critic. All from his house in Shorewood. Guy's a fraud.

@Micheal McClusky....Absolutes are only absolutes for a short period of time. To not deal with problems because there isn't a clear path to solutions is a mistake. We have a mind that is geared to problem solving. Is violence absolutely wrong; yes, but there are times when violence is justified and then it becomes a relative issue. The jihadists are committed to damaging us with any means possible. Does that mean that all Muslims are jihadists, no. Isn't it right to engage the non jihadist to find common ground; in my opinion absolutely yes.

@Lyle Rubie You lack a foundation or anchor in your beliefs. Our nation's principles are very foreign to much of the Arab world. Are we to change and twist the virtues of our society to accomadate ruthless practices perpetrated by those who despise us to begin with? I think not. You apologists really do not know how good you got it.

@Bewildered...Since when is there something wrong with having a wide range of experience and knowledge? What is wrong with having an insatiable curiosity? I never claimed to be an art critic or art expert. That has not been the focus of my studies or general interest. I have spent a good share of my adult years searching for answers to the Hobbesian Question of "Why is there order". This has engaged me in the social sciences, history and philosophy. As of late I am also taking on studies in the neurosciences all in attempt to better understand. I make no apologies for attempting to ask the "big questions" and then to share what I've learned. I have learned to distinguish between process and content and I am a firm believer in Philosophical Materialism. The only constant over time will be change to accommodate the three environments.

@Michael McClusky....It is a strong statement that I don't have a foundation in my beliefs and philosophies. I think, you are jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence to support your statement. The very essence of this blog was that we have two entirely different cultural systems and that Islamists don't know our cultural well enough. But in contrast we also don't know theirs well enough either. You make an assumption that I am stating that we must change our culture to accommodate their misunderstandings and misinterpretations. Nothing could be further from the truth. Only through contact and dialog can we overcome the impasse, regardless of the radicals on both sides.

@Barbara Barnes -- "Our view is right and theirs is wrong. It's that simple"

You're correct on one count -- The US does have an ironclad freedom of speech, and that is good. It unfortunately puts us in the position of having to explain that we find some of that 'speech' just as offensive as the rest of the world does. And look down below, to where Stormy has gotten her feathers all in a ruffle over a photograph.

OK Lyle, I'll call your bluff. Pls supply proof you've lived in Utah, just one of your "life experiences" you claim.

@Bewildered -- How is Lyle supposed to prove that? A picture of him standing in front of the Temple in Salt Lake City?

@Bewildered....What kind of proof? Both of my parents are buried there, two of my children, four grandchildren and two great grandchildren currently live there along with my ex-wife. I have two degrees from the University of Utah. What more proof do you want.

@Lyle Rubie "Absolutes are only absolutes for a short period of time" These were your exact words. Since there is no basis for a strong moral stand in your universe, then one could conclude that eventually everything can go out the window- including our freedoms. I mean, since nothing ever lasts, therefore the possibilities are endless regarding the decay of our own society. No, there has to remain strong absolutes, otherwise you are logically looking for trouble.

Even a strictly self interested person had best be concerned about what happens in the a middle east as it impacts our economy very directly...not to mention the planet. This isolationist thought is a throwback, a medievalism. We are already interdependent. It is a global economy, we must practice global philosophies.

@Brian Carlson Global philosophies? Really? This suggests that people all over the world have common backgrounds, common expiierences, common cultures and common outlooks. This is a pipe dream. The idea of an utopian world community is still centuries away. It is in the West that most of the world's progress has been made in the last century. It is in the West that the world looks to to continue their own well-being. This idea that humanity has progressed into one happy family simply is not true.

Yes Michael....really...global philosophies. Not, however, as you characterize them. Philosophies that respect diversity, see the benefit of the great range of human experience, philosophy and ideation, but comprehend that solutions must increasingly be arrived at in concert and with benefit to all.

@Brian Carlson Well, we Americans can't seem to agree on anything and we have a diverse population. I really cannot see some sort of universal philosophy encompassing the whole world any time soon. It is an ideal that we will not see in our lifetimes.

Michael, it's easy to toss one's hands up and determine nothing will change or that because we wont see it happen, it's not worth working towards. There is actually a lot of movement towards global dialogue, international laws, global awareness, ecology, accords, etc. It is getting pretty obvious that no one is an island anymore. Religions are even making progress, reaching out progressively to recognize one another. It is preliminary, but you can participate if you want to. We can leave a better world to our children and certainly to our grandchildren.

@Brian Carlson The lanquage of the world today is economics; this is in an uncertain state due to trade imbalances and inconsistent demand. Many trade pacts are under strain due to local economic trends throughout the world. I contend that the global economy will devolve into regional economies. The intricate web we currently have is detrimental mainly because a crisis in one country has ripplling affects across the oceans. Note Greece.
I suggest you read the international bloggers from The Economist magazine, a British publication that covers the world in a generally thorough way. The foreign residents certainly have problems with one another that has nothing to do with the West.

Thanks Michael, I will. There seems to be an idea running around that I believe all the ills of the planet are due to western involvements, agendas or actions. This is not true. I believe, however, that the most powerful empire that has ever existed, the US primarily acts in what it imagines is in it's own interest, primarily the interests of its huge corporations, and commits many grave and effective errors, spinning it all as some sort of effort to spread democracies and freedom. Money and power are the issue, not freedoms of citizenry.

@Brian Carlson I agree. It is all about money, power and resources.

@Michael McClusky...Whether we like it or not, national borders are fading away. The new order is being led by the Information Age Revolution. There are no borders in the cyber world. Economics is almost completely dependent on information technology and finance has been global for many decades. As uncensored information continues to flood into closed societies it will fuel changes in the social order resulting in a move to global values and expectations. We are seeing the results of this in the reaction in a number of closed societies that are experiencing this uncontrolled and undirected assault on their individual social structures.

Common reactions to resist such change is what is motivating the radicals and we are experiencing what is called in behavioral psychology an "Extinction Burst". What is different in groups verses individuals is that it takes a long time to eradicate the undesirable behavior.

We are on the cusp of seeing the world go to a new social order of globalized values, laws, morality, ethics, etc. We live in exciting times and it's too bad that none of us will be around to see the end result. Welcome to the new world.

The world is in a kind of labor.... It is tumultuous, painful.... But I concur with Lyle... Exciting. I think we have the capacity to educate out of the "might is right" paradigm that has been our heritage since antiquity, and cognize a single planet with great diversity, focused on the well being of all. Being in on the ground floor is a special opportunity. While respecting the best of the past, we must let go of the worst and that which no longer serves humanity.

@Lyle Rubie I agree with much of what you say, but I feel the law of unintended consequences is also emerging. Since national governments hold less and less sway over the economic performance of their jurisdictions, there can be dire results in the making. Note the current uprisings in Spain and Greece. A well-travelled author that I read warns that all economics is local. In other words, people the world over are chiefly concerned about how their local situation is. It is like one big poker game where each player wants the winning hand. This cannot be.
Another factor that is slowly emerging deals with the business community. The fall in income and benefits for much of their employees means less demand in the marketplace. Some companies have not figured that out yet. Companies don't want to pay anyone, yet they want everyone to run out and spend, spend, spend. I see another recession headed our way.

@Lyle Another problem that I have come across with globalization has to do with the reserve currency- the US dollar. It, of course, is the sole currency for international trade, For atleast 3 years countries such as China, Brazil, India and Russia have threatened to break away from the dollar. The reason: we have an absolute jackass running the Federal Reserve. My point is that one fool can devastate the entire world because, as you say, everything is interconnected in finance, technology and trade. Business people call it risk management. I call it abandoning ship before it is too late.

@Stormy Weather -- I made a point of watching the video, which purports to be a trailer for a longer movie about the 'life' of Mohammed. It is definitely worse than anything Michael Moore has done. It portrays the Prophet as illegitimate, bisexual, and a molester of children. It is not worse, however, than what the makers of South Park have done upon occasion with various sects of Christianity.

The movie's problem is that it wasn't funny at all. It appears to have been written to be deliberately offensive. If the same type of character assassination had been done about the life of Jesus, I would be prepared to issue an apology as well, along with an observation that such garbage is the price of free speech.

@Stormy Weather....Let me comment on Michael Moore's movies. I support his right to make them even though they are truly offensive to some people. The difference between Moore and the idiot that made the Life of Mohammed is that Moore's movies are well researched and has the benefit of supporting evidence. Moore's movies are made to move the conscience and expose hypocrisy.

I would fight to my dying breath in support of free speech of anyone, including those that I don't agree with. My comment to Nuitari has to be taken in context and the long history of exchange. My comment to him had nothing to do with free speech but the content of his speech.

As far as lumping people together and making broad statements is written from my perspective of someone who has been exposed to the darker side of the groups that I highlight. For example; I hold, so called Christians responsible for the Shoah (Holocaust) of my people and the attempt to exterminate us from the face of the earth. It was a process begun by Saul of Tarsus some 2000 years ago. I am a religious and cultural minority living within a Christian nation and I am very sensitive to the actions of the majority. This sensitivity has made me keenly aware of social injustice and denied opportunities. Again everything has to be taken in context.

Lyle,
You don't want to debate, just insult anyone who stands for reason. I forgot your limitations in education since my graduate degree is in science and I study and discuss facts not hyperbole. Enjoy your Sunday.

@Barbara Barnes....What does having a graduate degree in science have to do with the question at hand. There are facts and there are facts. Science facts are substantiated through experimentation. Other types of facts are substantiated through observation. Dealing in the social sciences requires adherence to a different type of process and observations. I will debate you on the merits of your arguments, but you need to present better evidence to support your position other than just conjecture.

Neither Lyle nor I have proposed the banning of any movie, book or piece of artwork. If someone made a movie portraying Jesus Christ as illegitimate, a womanizer, and cavorting homosexually with his Apostles, I'd be just as disapproving.

Yes indeed, the Piss Christ was intended to be offensive and provocative. It also seems to be a statement about idolatry, one that I don't agree with. I didn't care for the Mapplethorpe photo with the bull-whip either. Any more questions?

@Stormy Weather....We have a long tradition in this nation of political satirists who take on the power structure of the time. Will Rogers, Lenny Bruce, Richard Prior, Red Fox, George Carlin, just to name a few. The current crop is no different than earlier versions. What they all have in common is that they are entertainers. Entertainers target certain audiences, such as Rush Limbaugh does. It is unwise to take any of them too seriously. Bill Maher has built a following on poking fun at conservatives, especially conservative women, and the religious. What makes all of them relevant is their ability to make us look at ourselves.

As far as the "Piss Christ" is concerned, I won't denounce it because, it is a work of art and has no relevance to me. Should I denounce the numerous representations of art that are representations of the "Passion of Christ" because I find them offensive and they are relevant to me, no I will not.

Piss Christ is Serrano's indictment against the commercialism of Christian iconography. Jesus Christ himself decried the commercialism that surrounded the Temple.

How can anyone criticize a piece of artwork without even understanding the artist's intention? That's the socially offensive behavior, defiling other people's eyes and ears with their ignorance. If I don't understand something I make it my business to find out. I certainly don't revel in my ignorance and would never want to expose myself to public ridicule by flagrantly and joyously exposing my lack of knowledge to the world.

Thankfully there are enough people who appreciate the socio-political, in addition to aesthetic, role that art has to play in the world.

I can not believe both Lyle and Bren, our two haughty lefties, are defending Piss Christ. But then again, they loved it when the Dems voted against God at the convention. Someone's true colors are coming out of the closet

Bewildered, why don't you take a moment or four and educate yourself about Piss Christ? Otherwise, wear that "dunce" cap with pride.

@Bewildered...I don't think you know what Bren or I think about anything. Whether I agree with the Democrats or not is immaterial to my sociopolitical positions.

Stand by comments. Educate myself on the artistic uses of urine? i think not! You, sir, are a disgrace.
As for Lyle, anyone who considers the murder of four souls " tweaking", Need I say more? "Just another bump in the road" , eh ?

I have zero interest in understanding what you two are thinking. Zero, zip, nada. Clear enough? Just hate, and always have, your hypocrisy and self righteousness.

So, why is Piss Christ a work of art, but not the Innocence of Muslims motion picture? Did Bren, Lyle, or anyone else here ask the director what his artistic intentions were with the film, as apparently the artist's intention is how this crowd is qualifying that which qualifies as art?

Mr. Hoffa, I don't have an answer to your question.

If I had interest in producing a work on Islam, I would have to be utterly convinced by peers, publishers, etc., that I was adding to the knowledge base on the topic in a transformative way before moving forward, given its sensitivity. Otherwise, wouldn't this be considered a provocation of sorts? We don't typically go out of our way to offend others in polite society unless there are salient legal/social facts that must be shared for the common good. Why should religion not be treated in the same thoughtful way?

@Bren -

"We don't typically go out of our way to offend others in polite society unless there are salient legal/social facts that must be shared for the common good."

REALLY???

Then how do you explain most stand-up comedy? Or many comedy films that play stereotypes in a negative way for comedic value?

And then there's individual interpretation. What one finds offense, another doesn't - there is no universal standard.

Many people interpret the Piss Christ as the artist having pissed on Christianity, which many Christians find offensive, and yet you defend that piece of art while condemning the 'Innocence of Muslims' motion picture, even though you have no idea what the intentions of the artists were that produced it!

Round and round, Bren's spin is starting to make Hoffa dizzy!

Basically, Bren is saying that only intellectual superiors, such as herself, should be deciding what's appropriate and that which isn't for the rest of us peons!

Once again Bren, Hoffa is laughing at the superior intellect!

@JRH...Settle down, we can't throw a fist every time someone tweaks our sensibilities. You have to separate the assassination from the other issues. In the case of the assassination who are you going to hold responsible? To merely react without knowing who is responsible is the same as the Nazis pulling out innocent civilians and putting them up against a wall and executing them.

Has it occurred to anyone that the offensive movie might have been made and posted on Youtube so close to the anniversary of 9/11 as a smokescreen for planned Al Queda violence? We had angry demonstrations against embassies in multiple venues, all of which distracted attention from the possibly planned attack in Benghazi.

@Hoffa, I would give Libya a chance to deal with this, and if their response is insufficient, I would re-think our diplomatic relations and foreign aid to them. But we can't just go bombing Tripoli in retaliation.

@Lyle -

Hoffa was talking about Egypt, not Libya.

But as far as Libya goes, the US government had a three day notice that attacks were eminent, the Obama administration was too busy campaigning to worry about intelligence briefings, did nothing to beef up security, and knew the day after that al-Qaeda was responsible but continued to LIE, instead blaming it on a video and apologizing for the video.

Obama promised to bring peace to the middle east and be open and transparent.

Obama is a LIAR and Hoffa holds him responsible.

Thank you, Randy. Some folks forget that Karl Rove isn't the only twisted PR genius in the foul game of politics. Given the U.S.' actions during the Arab Spring, this is really a darkly brilliant and sadly successful piece of anti-American opportunism. Mitt Romney's mouth-flapping didn't help, either. The guy is an international embarrassment.

Mr. Hoffa, for the record, the Bush administration was forced to sit down during the hand-off (despite several put-offs) and be briefed on the growing threat of terrorism and al Quaeda. While adulterer Newt Gingrich was leading the attack on Bill Clinton for the Monica Lewinsky scandal, there were al Quaeda activities that were not getting sufficient media attention. In the months leading to 9/11 (and there's a loaded pr significance to the attack date), other warnings were coming through. The FBI was tracking suspects. A high priority warning days before the attack was ignored. Our president, by 9/11/2001, had already taken more vacation time than any other modern president, including two-termers. We were caught with our pants down and 3,000+ people died.

Computer modeling revealed that the levees in New Orleans would not withstand a severe hurricane well before Hurricane Katrina. The Bush administration refused to fund fortification and/or repairs. A guy who previously ran a horse association was made head of FEMA. How many people died, went missing, etc. because of that fiasco?

Let's talk about responsibility.

@Randy1949 -

The 'Innocence of Muslims' film was uploaded to YouTube on July 2, 2012, but if you consider that to be "close to the anniversary of 9/11," in order to support some conspiracy theory - hey, whatever floats your boat!

@Bren -

Once again, Bush is not in office, nor is he running for office. And Hoffa never voted for Bush, thank you very much! But there you go again anyway, blaming Bush because you can't defend Obama's actions!

To all:

Hoffa's initial comment was solely about Egypt. Hoffa's second comment was solely about Libya. Please recognize the distinctions!

Mr. Hoffa, just re-setting the baseline to a rational comparative point. One can't foist accusations at one president without a comparative reference.

Great strides have been made in the Middle East toward freedom from tyranny and I'm proud of the role that the U.S. has taken in empowering the people of the involved countries. This is what I want America to do, help people become free. It is of no surprise that pro-government/tyranny forces in those countries would want to strike back.

@Bewildered...Leave to you to take things out of context.

Your own words

OK, Lyle, again in your OWN words from the above rant:

"a despicable video made in Southern California has international consequences with deaths"

Nice to see our very own all powerful Oz is the last person in America to believe the video was the cause of the four murders in Lybia. Way to stay current, big guy !

I agree Bewildered:

Lyle farts out of his mouth and talks out of his azs.

Not the words I would use, but.......

Bewildered clearly reacts to portions of text instead of immersing and reflecting on the words presented. This is always a disappointment.

Compare: "Obama "doo" and "Piss Christ" employ found objects in execution.

Contrast: Without its title, Serrano's work suggests an iconic suffusion of dying Christ within a light-filled, golden-hued environment. Earliest trans-pagan Christians equated God with light. Recall the anti-Arianistic Nicene Creed of 325 and its specific text, "...God from God, Light from Light..." Architectural creations, such as the Hagia Sophia (Byzantium/Istanbul), and the great Gothic cathedrals of Europe, explored the theme of God as radiance. Observe too the nimbi in iconic religious art to symbolize holiness.

In the pre-Industrial world, the night sky, filled with stars, was an intimidating celestial wonder. The coming of dawn brought relief as the restoration of warmth and vision, and also uncomplicating self-view; a most becoming comparison to the acceptance of faith.

Commercialism of religion cheapens the relationship between humankind and its belief systems. It appears to embrace but actually mocks due to the cynicism that inspires its rendering.

Even if the artist acknowledges that he dipped the commercially-produced crucifix in urine, how do we know that he is/not lying? To "take the piss" means to mock. Does Serrano refer to commercialism taking advantage of Christians/Christ in his title? To Jesus' reaction to the sellers in the Temple? Both? It is indeed a provocative and compelling work.

Obama Doo is one-dimensional, reactive/pseudo-replicative, non-topical.

OMG, what a pile of "doo doo" Bren just laid. Must admit, wonderful job of cutting and pasting ( too bad Bren can't be expelled for plagiarism).

I knew a valid response on my part would lead to amusing results. I apologize, I couldn't help myself. But how could I resist with two such well-informed art analysts as Stormy and Bewildered? ; )

Thank you!

; )

Bren's response just goes to show how a liberal can call sometihng that is clearly dispicable "art". What's next, bren? Calling the rape of a child an analogy to the industrial revolution?? *shakes head*

It's almost a Pavlovian response to any situation that arises at this point. Blame and equivocate. Unfortunately, it seems to work for this administration most of the time.

I thought it was good to remind that the U.S. government is not (yet at least) the arbiter of taste in our country. For people living under (or until recently) regimes, this level of freedom is not well understood. Many might, through this lens, reasonably assume that since its viral, it's U.S. Government-approved.

I take no issue with a statement similar in nature to those posted on networks; the views expressed in this program do not necessarily reflect those of station management.

The embassy should be given props for trying to defuse an evolving tragedy instead of censured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dqPQblKGHY

Clinton uses her position as SOS to judge the 'Innocence of Muslims' on behalf of our nation as "disgusting and reprehensible."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYNl0ePfZE

Obama uses his position as President to judge the 'Innocence of Muslims' on behalf of our nation as "crude and disgusting" and as an "insult not only to Muslims but to Americas as well."

WTF!!!

This is BS - Obama and Clinton should not be using their official positions to cast judgement upon the film 'Innocence of Muslims!'

Where's the outrage?!?!

The government must not be the taste police!!! We are not paying them to judge and decide the taste of private actions and then perpetuate their conclusions to the rest of the world on our behalf!!!

Obama/Clinton crossed a line here and no one is saying anything about it!!! What the hell is the matter with America that Hoffa is one of the only people that recognizes this?!?!

IMPEACH OBAMA/CLINTON!!!

Stormy - Re you favorite comment mentioning laying a pile of doo doo. At last, something you can relate to! Your kind of artful writing. How can you possibly relate to higher thoughts than a latrine?

I would be amused to see what passes for the decorative arts in Stormy's abode.

It's no skin off me if you stick an image of our President in feces. It's all legal no matter how offensive, and I've seen much worse. The fact that you're laughing about it says more about you than it does about me.

Wouldn't it be ironic if it turned out that Serrano had actually obtained his photographic effect by immersing that plastic crucifix in apple juice?

You're absolutely right about the piss/apple juice, Randy. That's part of the provocative exploration! But I believe that aspect will whiz (or whizz? ; ) right over Stormy's head.

If it doesn't have an American bald eagle or a piece of fruit on it, is it truly art? ; ) ; )

A favorite artist quote: "When people say, 'I don't know art but I know what I like,' what they are truly saying is 'I like what I know.' And that's usually a tall ship or fruit in a basket."

I'm sorry you couldn't follow my point, Stormy. But there is a wonderful world out there for those with open minds!

; )

Do you even understand what 'art' is? Art is a different view of life and the universe. Art makes you stop and think. The message could be something as simple as, "Wow -- a pink flower if very pretty!" Or it could be something far more complex. If you accept the core tenet of Christianity, that God became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, then it would, for the Almighty, be something like being immersed in urine. Add to that the insult of having multiple images made in cheap plastic to be placed on dashboards. I do believe that was the message in that photograph.

It was a trick question, asking if we 'supported' it. I no more support it than I support the Westboro Baptist people. I have to tolerate their right to free speech, but I really give a hand to those bikers who go to military funerals to drown those jerks out.

@Bren -- It's difficult to explain to people what makes 'good' art. There's nothing wrong with a painting of a tall ship or fruit in a basket. It is merely that an artist puts something more into the image -- a play with light, color palette, perspective -- that differentiates a Winslow Homer or a Paul Cezanne from the kind of 'starving artist' paintings people buy cheap and hang above their sofas.

I'm not for banning dogs playing poker or Elvis on black velvet. I just don't think they're very good art.

@Randy1949 -

Earlier, you stated "Art is a different view of life and the universe. Art makes you stop and think."

Dogs playing poker is certainly a "different view of life and the universe" and does make one "stop and think," and yet, you don't believe this to be very good art, despite it's creativity and meeting the qualifiers your previously laid out.

And yet, a painting of a Campbell's soup can is high art??? Or a crucifix submerged in urine???

Hoffa has to be missing something here!

@Bren -

You're the elitist snob who's trying to limit the definition of art to that which you perceive as being art!

Hoffa prefers movie posters to paintings by dead people - going to make fun of Hoffa too?

Actually, Hoffa, dogs playing poker amuse me, so they are 'art' to that extent. And please, don't pin Andy Warhol on me.

No, Hoffa, I'm the elitist snob when it comes to art. You should read what I had to say about Thomas Kinkade, although his cotton-candy paintings made people feel warm and fuzzy, I'll grant him that.

I'm not going to make fun of you for liking movie posters. I happen to have the Amsel poster for Raiders of the Lost Ark hanging in my bedroom.

@Randy1949 -

Hoffa believes that art is in the eye of the beholder - except for people like Bren.

Hoffa sees functional art in automotive design, electronics design, etc. Hoffa even has an old Soviet propaganda velvet banner depicting Lenin and all the official coat of arms of the individual SSRs hanging on one wall, because he sees historical art in that.

But certainly someone like Bren would just make fun of Hoffa for believing that those things would ever represent art.

And yet Bren is accusing others of having a closed and limited mind - that Hoffa just doesn't understand!

Randy, you had a criticism for "The Artist of Light?" ; )

I'm not an elitist snob. Elements of my small but choice collection of Kitsch have been in two exhibitions celebrating the genre.

While it's true, as Mark Twain said, "A cauliflower is a cabbage with a college education," there are fields and areas of study that require extensive research and study for deep appreciation. I would consider the fine arts among them.

@Stormy -- I could turn it back on you by asking how that Ted Jones/Todd Akin thing is going for "Y'all", but that would be tainting all conservatives with the idiotic behavior of a few.

Yes, Randy's right. Todd Akin is far more of an embarrassment (and his Congressional colleague Paul Ryan, who has co-sponsored many of Akin's bills) than Madonna. That woman is laughing all the way to the bank.

Stormy compared Clint Eastwood to Madonna, both performance artists.

Akin is a politician.

Way to compare apples to oranges guys!

We are comparing idiots of all political persuasions, regardless of their avocations.

Totally random and speaking of Clint, saw "Trouble with the Curve" last nite. Great, great movie. And great baseball movie. Even my wife loved it. No matter what you think of Clint ( and you don't need to get into THAT), he did an Academy Award performance. Do yourself a favor and go see "trouble with the curve". For two hours you'll forget all the madness outside the theatre....and that ain't bad!

Perhaps, just perhaps, Lyle should chose his words a little more carefully.

" tweaking our sensibilities" when referring to the brutal murders in Lybia while ignoring it was a terrorist attack
or
" All Christians are very intolerant of others"

Folks ! These are Lyle's very own words and not taken out of context. I, for one, find these comments disturbing and very offensive. That, Brian, is my comment you feel I owe to what's his name.

Insightful

So I take it you agree with the following Lyle quotes?

" tweaking our sensibilities" when referring to the brutal murders in Lybia while ignoring it was a terrorist attack
or
" All Christians are very intolerant of others"

Didn't answer question

I never stated or believed Lyle didn't take the murders seriously. I'm sure he did. But, I am deeply offended by Lyle classifying the murders as "tweaking our sensibilities", just as I am by Obama calling the assassinations "a bump in the road".

Believe we are already "reaping". Just ask the ambassador or victims of 9/11. Pray tell, what did we "sow" to deserve terrorist attacks since 1992? Damn right, "eye for an eye". Is that not what Obama is doing with drone attacks? You maybe ready to lower the flag, not I .

Interesting is not the word I would use. Need I elaborate? I think not.

That is an absurd question. I am not Wilson. Just when I thought we were almost having a decent conversation.

Brian, congrats. You've proven yourself a full fledged "appoliligist" believing the US is the root of all evils.

Full name is John Wilson. Hope you don't.

Angie, you are quite sane..... These bridges, such as the one you stand on or move back and forth across, are exactly what the world should focus on building. It is monocular thinking that, in this global society, is neurotic, atavistic... Ultimately decreative. Join two cultures, join four, join six.... This interweaving enhances your experiential knowledge base, your respect for others, and likewise informs them. This IS Sanity. Perpetually insisting that the world must be at war, one part fighting another, is insisting that a body have it's parts in conflict.... A state of disease.

@Dave Koven...I am looking at trying to add some deeper context to the conversations that occur in this format. I thank you for your kind words.